Boat Building Forum

Find advice on all aspects of building your own kayak, canoe or any lightweight boats

Off topic, but since you went there...
By:Brian Nystrom
Date: 4/21/2000, 10:56 am
In Response To: Re: p.s. guys in a snit (lee)

: obviously me,,,, but about the bike analogy. Before Mavic started making the
: higher profile rims they touted the NEW GP4s (sew-up rims) as the latest
: greatest thing because they had a very heavy anodization. The funny part
: is that the rim also happened to weigh more than the previous popular
: model of sew-up rim that they made. I was surprised when I went to races
: to see guys riding on wheels with 36 hole straight 14 gauge spokes, these
: were national class racers. So sure technology gets
: stronger,lighter,harder (sounding pornographic here) but there is no way
: around the simple balance that occures when you trade weight for
: strength,or poor technique with good technique WITH THE SAME MATERIALS.

Another guy who rides tubies...yeah!

I'm not a big fan of Mavic, especially their "boutique" wheels. I do use some of their older rims (GEL-280's, GL-330's and old style GP-4's). You're correct that their new stuff is no better and much heavier than their older products. However, what we're dealing with here is a situation of hype over substance.

To carry the engineering analogy further, I have a set of 36 spoke wheels built with a 280 front/330 rear, DT Revolution spokes on the front and left rear, and DT 14/15 gauge spokes on the right rear (on Record hubs). These wheels are lighter, stronger (wheel strength is primarily a function of total spoke tension) and MUCH less expensive than Mavic's much touted Helium and Ksyrium wheel sets. They are constructed of the same materials, but with different methods. This seems much like the principle of using lighter wood (rims) with more, lighter glass (spokes) to achieve the same end result of a lighter and stronger finished boat (wheel). Cool, eh? ;-)

My apologies to the non-cyclists, but I think this example shows that the same premises can be applied to many products and materials.

Ps. Lee, I believe that the reason that Mavic stopped making light rims was to prevent custom builders from producing wheels that are lighter than their high margin boutique wheels. Fortunately, other companies are filling the need for light rims. If you feel like chatting about bikes or boats, drop me a line any time.

Messages In This Thread

Safety, two points
Nolan -- 4/20/2000, 9:32 am
Re: Safety, two points
Rehd -- 4/22/2000, 3:59 am
Re: Safety, two points
Erez -- 4/22/2000, 10:16 pm
Re: What information do you want?
Nick Schade - Guillemot Kayaks -- 4/21/2000, 11:49 am
Re: What information do you want?
Nolan -- 4/21/2000, 12:33 pm
Re: P.S.
Nolan -- 4/21/2000, 12:36 pm
Re: Seat of the pants tests
Nick Schade - Guillemot Kayaks -- 4/21/2000, 2:10 pm
Re: Seat of the pants tests
Don Beale -- 4/21/2000, 9:09 pm
Re: Seat of the pants tests
Nolan -- 4/21/2000, 2:46 pm
Re: Seat of the pants tests
Nick Schade - Guillemot Kayaks -- 4/21/2000, 4:19 pm
Re: Seat of the pants tests
Ross Leidy -- 4/21/2000, 4:43 pm
Re: Seat of the pants tests
simon king -- 4/21/2000, 5:07 pm
I do agree
Marcelo -- 4/21/2000, 5:58 pm
Re: I do agree
Ian Johnston -- 4/22/2000, 2:18 am
Re: I do agree
Dean Trexel -- 4/23/2000, 1:29 pm
Off topic: Banana Republic Citizen
Marcelo -- 4/22/2000, 3:16 pm
Re: Off topic: Banana Republic Citizen
Ian Johnston -- 4/22/2000, 7:02 pm
Re: Diesels for marine use ...
John B. -- 4/22/2000, 6:47 pm
Re: Avoidance/responsibility
Ian Johnston -- 4/21/2000, 3:37 pm
Re: P.S.
Ian Johnston -- 4/21/2000, 1:22 pm
Re: martial soap operas
lee -- 4/21/2000, 7:54 pm
Re: Well Put
Mike Hanks -- 4/21/2000, 2:05 pm
Re: Well Put
Dean Trexel -- 4/21/2000, 2:23 pm
Re: What information do you want?
Dean Trexel -- 4/21/2000, 12:22 pm
Re: What information do you want?
Bill Heuser -- 4/22/2000, 6:07 am
Time to step back and take a deep breath
Brian Nystrom -- 4/22/2000, 9:36 am
Re: Your Flame Sucks
Spidey -- 4/23/2000, 1:27 am
A little testy, are we?
Brian Nystrom -- 4/23/2000, 7:18 am
Re: Time to step back and take a deep breath
Bill Heuser -- 4/22/2000, 5:17 pm
Re: What information do you want?
Richard -- 4/22/2000, 7:54 am
Re: What information do you want?
Don Beale -- 4/21/2000, 12:19 pm
Re: What information do you want?
Nick Schade - Guillemot Kayaks -- 4/21/2000, 12:33 pm
Re: What information do you want?
Don Beale -- 4/21/2000, 8:58 pm
Re: There are no standards
Nick Schade - Guillemot Kayaks -- 4/22/2000, 9:53 am
Re: Propriatary data
Don Beale -- 4/23/2000, 11:55 pm
Re: safety,reality,and b.s.
lee -- 4/21/2000, 12:54 am
Well put Lee (nt) *NM*
Doug Keaster -- 4/21/2000, 9:05 am
Re: safety,reality,and b.s.
Nolan -- 4/21/2000, 8:03 am
Re: Good morning
lee -- 4/21/2000, 9:24 am
Re: safety,reality,and b.s.
Brian G. -- 4/21/2000, 9:10 am
Re: safety,reality,and b.s.
Brian G. -- 4/21/2000, 1:55 am
The right to make unsupported statements.....
Bruce -- 4/20/2000, 4:03 pm
Re: oops!
Dean Trexel -- 4/20/2000, 9:47 pm
Re: oops!
Bruce -- 4/20/2000, 10:12 pm
Re: oops!
Brian Nystrom -- 4/20/2000, 10:58 pm
Re: oops!
Brian G. -- 4/21/2000, 12:37 am
Re: The right to make unsupported statements.....
Dean Trexel -- 4/20/2000, 5:31 pm
Safety priorities....
Will Brockman -- 4/20/2000, 8:49 pm
Now THIS I agree with!!!
Doug Keaster -- 4/20/2000, 4:48 pm
Well written points by Nolan.
Allen R. -- 4/20/2000, 2:19 pm
Re: Well written points by Nolan.
Nolan -- 4/21/2000, 7:44 am
Re: Safety, two points
Dean Trexel -- 4/20/2000, 12:24 pm
Re: Safety, two points
Chicken Little -- 4/21/2000, 10:39 am
Re: Safety, two points
Ken Finger -- 4/20/2000, 11:38 am
Re: Safety, two points
Nolan -- 4/21/2000, 7:50 am
Re: Safety, two points
Derek -- 4/20/2000, 11:37 am
An outsider's perspective
Brian Nystrom -- 4/20/2000, 1:30 pm
Re: An outsider's perspective
Dean Trexel -- 4/20/2000, 2:05 pm
Not true, from what I've seen
Brian Nystrom -- 4/20/2000, 2:48 pm
Re: Not true, from what I've seen
Dean Trexel -- 4/20/2000, 5:13 pm
Re: Not true, from what I've seen
Brian Nystrom -- 4/20/2000, 10:41 pm
Re: Bryan
lee -- 4/21/2000, 1:39 am
Here you go.
Brian Nystrom -- 4/21/2000, 8:02 am
Re: Strength Data Graphs *Pic*
Nick Schade - Guillemot Kayaks -- 4/21/2000, 12:28 pm
Re: Strength Data Graphs
Brian Nystrom -- 4/21/2000, 12:51 pm
Re: Strength Data Graphs
Shawn B -- 4/21/2000, 4:04 pm
Re: wood density
Nick Schade - Guillemot Kayaks -- 4/21/2000, 4:25 pm
Re: wood density
Bill Heuser -- 4/22/2000, 4:38 pm
Re: Optimized Boats
Nick Schade - Guillemot Kayaks -- 4/21/2000, 3:01 pm
Agreed
Brian Nystrom -- 4/21/2000, 5:08 pm
Re: Agreed
Ian Johnston -- 4/21/2000, 5:45 pm
Re: Well Said, Nick!! *NM*
Ian Johnston -- 4/21/2000, 3:42 pm
Re: Here you go.
lee -- 4/21/2000, 8:59 am
Fair enough, but...
Brian Nystrom -- 4/21/2000, 10:19 am
Re: p.s. guys in a snit
lee -- 4/21/2000, 9:17 am
Off topic, but since you went there...
Brian Nystrom -- 4/21/2000, 10:56 am
Re: Off topic, but since you went there...
lee -- 4/21/2000, 7:36 pm
Re: Lee
Ian Johnston -- 4/21/2000, 3:16 am
Re: Lee
lee -- 4/21/2000, 9:07 am
Re: Hondas and Suburban/Guillemot and Roberts
Ian Johnston -- 4/21/2000, 12:54 pm
Re: Lee
Bill Heuser -- 4/21/2000, 6:03 am
Re: Lee
James Neely -- 4/21/2000, 7:32 am
Madness continues
Dale Frolander -- 4/21/2000, 3:10 am
A nibble of crow.
Dale Frolander -- 4/22/2000, 3:38 am
Good points, Dale.
Brian Nystrom -- 4/21/2000, 10:34 am
Re: Good points, Dale.
Dale Frolander -- 4/21/2000, 11:57 am
Raka
Brian Nystrom -- 4/21/2000, 12:16 pm
Re: Raka
Ross Leidy -- 4/21/2000, 2:18 pm
Raka glass with MAS epoxy
Allen R. -- 4/24/2000, 3:32 pm
Re: Raka glass with MAS epoxy
Dan Lindberg -- 4/24/2000, 5:50 pm
Re: Experience with this layup *Pic*
Mike Hanks -- 4/21/2000, 1:04 pm
Practice makes perfect
Brian Nystrom -- 4/21/2000, 5:02 pm
Re: Raka
Dale Frolander -- 4/21/2000, 12:37 pm
Re: It runs when you leave the room
Shawn B -- 4/21/2000, 3:52 pm
Re: Raka
Dean Trexel -- 4/21/2000, 12:29 pm
Re: Madness continues
lee -- 4/21/2000, 9:29 am
Re: Safety, two points
Ross Leidy -- 4/20/2000, 10:11 am
Re: Safety, two points
Rob Forsell -- 4/20/2000, 9:57 am