: Redhd,

: I highly recommend that you pick up a copy of Bob Flexner's book. There is so
: much misunderstanding and misinformation in the world of wood finishes
: that I have seen both online and published in magazines (since he does not
: address epoxies, I will have to do some investigating on my own).'''

I beg to differ... but I don't believe I have to read someone elses ideas to know what I've been doing for 25+ years in cabinet and furniture finishing...
I for one don't believe everything I read in black and white... therefore I experiment.. Everyone circumstances are different... wood spieces, finish technique and products... Climate and so on...

Case in
: point, you believe that the epoxy will be sticking to the wood fibers and
: not to the shellac. That is not the case, unless you completely sand off
: the shellac, the epoxy will be, at least partially, adhering to the
: shellac because the shellac, like all other film finishes, seals the wood.

That.. is where you are mistaken.. The 7 to 1 mixture is not on the surface... except in the tight grained areas.. The only thing I'm interested in is the shellac that soaks into the wood ( soft grain..). It does not sit on the surface. The thinned alcohol mixture soaks down deep into the soft grained areas and the alcohol evaporates out... leaving the shellac down in the wood... On the harder grain areas, yes, it sits on top of the fibers.. and is sanded off... Exactly what I'm after... This brings about a balance of color by sealing the softer grains and preventing the soaking in of the stain.. Case in point... when you stain around a knot... the stain on the knot is non existant.. around the knot, very dark and away from the knot in the solid wood area a lighter color... Those areas where it's very dark... the stain has soaked in very deeply... and the rest has settled on or near the surface.. If you sand.. you will take off the stain in the harder areas and that dark stain is still there.. it's still down deeper in the grain... Same holds true for the average wood in a strip or board... there are light and dark areas... blotches, as it were... I see it on every boat that is pictured on the KBB.

: When you partially sand through the shellac, you will have a situation
: where the best analogy to use is to picture a well worn Circulon pan. The
: teflon coating may be worn off the top of the ridges in the pan, but the
: teflon coating between the ridges remains intact. Not to say that epoxy
: won't adhere well in this situation, it may very well work great, however,
: as long as there is shellac still adhering to the wood, the wood is sealed
: and the epoxy is adhering to the shellac, not the wood.

Not entirely true again... The shellac is buried down in the grain.. but the surface is roughed up... opening wood grain...

In your scenerio(?) the ridges in the pan are what...?? quarter of an inch apart..?? In wood grain... the rings are side by side... so when you scratch the surface you are cutting every part of the grain in the wood... everything on the surface is scratched off... That..!!! is how the wood stains the same color... it can't sink down into the sealed wood.. darkening it..

: Not having worked with WRC, I am unsure what you meant by the blotchiness, I
: assumed you were attempting to stain it, for whatever reason.

You missed my point entirely...!! I want an even color... not variation... NO STAIN, just barewood with a clean finish on it.. Look at any of the pictures of the boats seen on these pages... You take a solid colored strip... apply a finish of any kind and it will have light and dark areas. I'm not talking about sap-wood verses heart wood.. I'm talking about a single colored piece of wood... all the same... wet it and you come up with variation in the color of the finished wood... blotchiness.. uneven colors..

I am
: familiar with blocthiness in regard to staining. Since you are attempting
: to reduce the blotchiness in unstained wood, about the only thing that
: comes to mind is to try "natural" color stain that I have seen.

Even clear epoxy, or shellac or anything else applied to a long piece of wood will give you a variation in color.. Not so much in hard wood or closed grain woods... but in the soft woods we are using on these boats... Nearly Always..!!

: I never thought there was much sense to staining something
: "natural", but it may work at reducing the blotchiness.

Natural finishes are no more than a clear or attempt at a clear finish.. Same-Same epoxy.. If you apply it on a piece of wood, ( soft wood ) you will get a variation in color.. I can almost guarantee it..!! If you have a piece of pine handy.. stain the flat surface and tell me you don't get different degrees of color...!!! Or, as we most often use... WRC or REDWOOD... you will see lighter and darker areas.. That.. is what I eliminate with the Shellac and Alcohol mixture... My colors come out nearly identical the length of the board.. knots and end grain included... Stain some end grain on any soft wood and it will turn black.... When I use the wash-coat it will come out just the same as the flat surface of the wood...

The only
: other item I can think of is a sanding sealer, which I believe is nothing
: more than a very thinned shellac,

EXACTLY..!!!

which is what you're doing. Even with
: sanding sealers, the wood is sealed.

Yes!! Until you sand the surface and cut through the sealer on the top... exposing the surface of the wood grain.. On the hard areas.. it nearly takes all the sealer off as it only penetrates a couple thousandths deep... but on the soft grain areas it cuts off the top layers ( surface ) but doesn't cut the sealer down in the deeper more open pores... So, when you apply the stain.. or clear finish it will only soak in the same distance over the entire surface... and you get even color.. Plus.. whatever you apply, and in this case I'm talking about epoxy, you are getting a bite into bare wood.. on the surface.. So, there should be a 100% bond between wood and epoxy..

I have used this technique for over 30 years ( 25 in cabinets and the past 5 years in my own furniture projects ) so I know it works..

However, my experiment, which was started in Sept. is still sitting in the garage in-tact because I forgot about it.. The epoxy/glass sections show NO sign of weakness and are just as solidly adhereing to the shellac treated sections as they are to the plain section... ( oak plywood ).

I was going to glue up some soft wood and Oak strip sections and try the same thing, coating with shellac/alcohol mixture, sanding and applying epoxy/glass combination over it. I would use it now.. but before I suggest it as a new/improved technique for good even colored strips.. I want to finish my tests and be able to show, without a doubt, that it will work..

The issue of direct sunlight heating the shellac and possibly causing some loosening issues just came up and I want to address that as well.. However... my original assumption is still a valid one until proven otherwise.. if the shellac is soaked down into the wood.. and the epoxy is bonded with the surface wood... the issue of the shellac loosening the epoxy should not be one... It can not affect a bond which it has no part in..

Again.. I hope this has cleared up some misunderstandings here.. I do not wish to stain anything.. Just interested in first: balancing colors in strips and second: showing the possiblity of using a "wash-coat" or "sealer-coat" on the bare wood and applying epoxy/glass over it with a good bond..

When my samples are complete... I will take pictures to show exactly what I mean.. and I think it will be much more obvious at that time...

I have a friend/neighbor that builds redwood canoes for a living.. All Redwood, bookmatched and same color batches.. but when his boats are finished... as beautiful as they are.. there is MUCH color variation both between strips ( identical, adjacent strips cut from the same board ) and in the same strip. I wish to try and eliminate that on my boats. If it works.. and I have no reason, as of yet, to believe that it won't... maybe I'll write a book..

Again, I both understand where you are coming from, and I appreciate your comments.. Work or not... I will give a report on my findings and in that way, either add something new to the finish process or eliminate the idea as a bad one... ?? All I've heard in the past are rumors and ideas.. untested... This is a test... so I and others will know for sure...

Rehd
Fresno, Calif.