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Re: paddle length?
By:Nick Schade - Guillemot Kayaks
Date: 12/26/2000, 10:43 am
In Response To: Re: paddle length? (Greg Stamer)

: "All of the advantages". That's quite a strong statement and I
: disagree.

A statement calculated to generate some comments. :)

: Greenland paddles have a wider range of expression than you suggest.
: Technique will govern whether you use a low stroke with high reps or a
: high, vertical stroke for maximum speed, and lower reps at the cost of
: more effort. The high stroke with the paddle blade canted forward produces
: very strong resistance; I am limited by my strength, not paddle
: "slippage" or high rpms.

You cant a "euro" blade forward with the same effect. The result is you increase the efficiency and the euro is still more efficient. You will not feel slippage. You will be able to apply all the force you are capable of applying regardless of paddle shape. It's just that some paddles will translate this applied force into forward velocity more efficiently than others. You can not rely on how the paddle feels to determine this. The momentum gained by the boat is equal to the momentum added to the water (mass x velocity of the boat = mass x velocity of the water). But because the kinetic energy is mass x velocity squared, you waste more energy by moving small amounts of water fast than moving large amounts slowly (due to the squared term). Paddles with larger blade areas will be more efficient because they push more water.

Note that any difference in efficiency will be most evident during hard acceleration. Once up to speed, the efficiency difference will be less pronounced, but the factors in involved in efficient acceleration are the same as those needed to maintain speed.

: If you were able to produce a "modern-style" paddle with the same
: or better biomechanical and hydrodynamic efficiences as a Greenland paddle
: then would it also develop the same smooth lift without any tendency to
: dive that makes rolls, braces and rough water handling so
: "efficient"? Not if you adopted a cupped or spooned blade. Would
: it still be extremely lightweight and highly bouyant? Would it retain the
: narrow, unfeathered blade that allows the paddle to have such neutral,
: predictable behavior in violent head, beam and tail winds and allows you
: to slide your hands to any point of the blade to find the perfect
: "gear" while giving precise feedback of the blade orientation?
: One very subtle feature that I miss whenever I use a "Euro"
: blade is that with the Greenland paddle I can quickly slide one blade
: under deck straps, or clamp a blade across the coaming with my elbows to
: have a buoyant outrigger that provides support and allows me to use both
: hands for fishing, pumping, and other tasks. The narrow blade takes up
: little real-estate on deck and I don't have to use leashes and other
: devices.

Most of the bad behavior associated with "euro" blades is due to the blade being thin. Fiberglass blades are made thin because it is easier to make that way, not due to any hydrodynamic design considerations. A wooden paddle or composite blade with some thickness will behave very predicably while sweeping or sculling. It will have very efficient lift. The blade thickness gives the paddle buoyancy as well. With the buoyancy concentrated more towards the ends, the "euro" blade does not need to be as buoyant to have the same effect.

While you can not hold the blade of a "euro" paddle, you can move your hands anywhere along the shaft, do a sliding stroke and adjust your "gear" very effectively. A well shaped shaft will give as recognisable a reference as the blade shape of the greenland paddle. Extended paddle techniques work perfectly well with a "euro" style paddle.

While "euro" blades can be flaky in winds, most of this flakiness can be dealt with using the same techniques recommended for greenland paddles: low stroke, sliding stroke, etc. The amount of grip the wind has on the blade is proportional to the amount of grip the blade has on the water. You can make a blade that is not bothered by the wind, only by making one that has no grip on the water.

My elbows work fine for holding my paddle. I see people slide their euro blade under decklines all the time.

: In short the only way that "a well designed modern-style paddle can have
: all the advantages of the greenland paddle" is if it were, it fact, a
: Greenland paddle.

You don't need to make a greenland paddle to get

: I am not trying to be facetious, I am just trying to point out that there are
: a wide range of reasons, including intangible ones, that influence my
: paddle choice. Paddles are highly personal objects and the efficiences
: that I wish to maximize might not be match yours. No one paddle can do it
: all and appeal to everyone, whether it be a Greenland paddle or a
: "well-designed modern paddle".

I agree that paddles are personal thing. I also think that if many of the proponents of greenland paddles would spend as much time and effort in becoming proficient with a good (non-fiberglass) euro paddle they would find the differences far less compelling. The greenland paddle has a mystique to it which intrigues many paddlers. When they learn about the paddle and its techniques, they see it a system with a compelling history and a lot of lore. This lore generates a deserved respect for the paddle. They don't just see it as a method for pushing the boat forward. They realize there is more to it and the paddle must be treated as a system and they must learn the system.

People don't look at the plain old "euro" paddle in the same way. They will learn the forward stroke, maybe a low and high brace, and maybe eventually a screw-roll. Since it's history is less interesting they don't bother learning about the whole system. The modern paddle has a lot going for it. Like the greenland paddle it needs to be treated as a system, and if you learn the system it can do a lot more than it is generally given credit for.

To try to give the "euro" paddle another advantage: it is an "open" system. Where the greenland paddle is held by tradition regarding what is "right" and "wrong", the "euro" paddle is open to constant innovation. It is free to incorporate what is good from the greenland tradition and add new ideas as they come along.

Messages In This Thread

paddle length?
mathew -- 12/22/2000, 9:07 am
Re: paddle length?
Jay Babina -- 12/26/2000, 11:00 am
Re: paddle length?
Earl Bailey -- 12/22/2000, 3:49 pm
Re: paddle length?
Nick Schade - Guillemot Kayaks -- 12/22/2000, 10:00 am
Re: paddle length?
John Leonard -- 12/23/2000, 8:51 pm
Re: paddle length?
Greg Stamer -- 12/23/2000, 5:50 pm
Re: paddle length?
Nick Schade - Guillemot Kayaks -- 12/26/2000, 10:43 am
Re: paddle length?
Rob Macks -- 12/26/2000, 1:28 pm
Re: paddle length?
Nick Schade - Guillemot Kayaks -- 12/27/2000, 11:30 am
So what makes a good paddle?
David Dick -- 12/28/2000, 8:12 am
Re: So what makes a good paddle?
Nick Schade - Guillemot Kayaks -- 12/28/2000, 11:54 am
Re: So what makes a good paddle?
Jim P. -- 12/28/2000, 8:48 am
Re: So what makes a good paddle?
Rob Macks -- 12/28/2000, 9:38 am
Re: paddle length?
Rob Macks -- 12/27/2000, 3:56 pm
Re: paddle length?
Rob Macks -- 12/27/2000, 2:30 pm
Re: paddle length?
Ken Sutherland -- 12/28/2000, 9:43 pm
Re: paddle length?
Rob Macks -- 1/2/2001, 11:16 am
Re: paddle length?
Richard Boyle -- 1/3/2001, 11:50 am
Re: paddle length?
Rob Macks -- 1/3/2001, 3:01 pm
Re: paddle length?
Ken Sutherland -- 1/2/2001, 9:57 pm
Re: paddle length?
Nick Schade - Guillemot Kayaks -- 12/28/2000, 12:32 pm
Re: paddle length?
Greg Stamer -- 12/26/2000, 12:41 pm
Re: paddle length?
Bert -- 12/24/2000, 12:51 pm
Re: paddle length?
Greg Stamer -- 12/24/2000, 3:32 pm
Redwood & Tung oil?
John Monfoe -- 12/23/2000, 12:45 am
Re: Redwood & Tung oil?
Duane Strosaker -- 12/24/2000, 11:51 pm
Re: Redwood & Tung oil?
John Monfoe -- 12/25/2000, 6:05 am
Re: Redwood & Tung oil?
Greg Stamer -- 12/23/2000, 10:22 am
Re: paddle length?
Larry C. -- 12/22/2000, 6:24 pm
Re: paddle length?
Nick Schade - Guillemot Kayaks -- 12/26/2000, 9:10 am