staples

Submitted byMichael Moberly onWed, 05/20/2020 - 19:04

Here's my question, I am using staples to hold my strips to the forms. I tried holt glue but it would not hold. Can I remove the staples and due a scrapping of the haul and then reinforce the haul with tape as Nick did on one of his builds  before flipping the forms or should I just strip the entire kayak before I start scrapping and sanding. I am still trying out different things to see what works.  Thanks in advance

My sequence - - strip the hull / seal and glass the hull / flip the forms and strip the deck / seal and glass the deck / separate the hull and deck / sand and glass the inside of both / install foot pegs - bulkheads - hip and knee braces - skegs in the hull / build the coaming (at least the risers in the deck) and glass them in place / glass the deck and hull together / finish building the coaming.

Run a strip of packing tape over the top strip between the hull and deck before starting the deck stripping to keep them from bonding together

If you heat and form each strip to fit in place a staple is more than enough pressure to hold them in place..

I don't heat anything that will lay in place with a staple. If it requires more than a staple to stay put it is heated to bend and twist to form.

The biggest plus for heating / bending to shape for me is that the staple holds the strip in position and I can continue to glue on additional strips. If I had to clamp the strip in position with bungee straps or use "C" clamps and braces to hold it I am out of work until the glue dries on that strip.

Michael, which design are you building?  Did you identify the issue causing the hot melt glue to fail?  Strip bend?  Glue?  Clamping pressure?  I am starting now and want to avoid using staples also, so any additional detail would be helpful.

Thanks!

Use the hot melt SARINGLY. The first time I used it I had to really smack the forms with a mallet to get them out - - tore out chunks of Cedar. The biggest problem is limited access after getting both hull and deck stripped and they are both attached to the forms.

There is a big difference in the quality of glue sticks, all the way from hobby-craft use to glueing the space shuttle together.

Try - - Adhesive Solutions Co.

product #HS-300  

HP clear glue sticks  (HP = high performance)

7/16" dia. 10" long

 

I put the exterior stem on mine intentionally. I used thin strips of Oak laminated together just to get it to be a totally different color than the Cedar when glassed. I also had a couple strips of Oak in the deck for looks. Nothing very fancy as it was my first kayak. I was quite happy with it.

I also installed Etienne Mueller's skeg design. I liked the design and it worked very well, really glad I added it. Complete details of his skeg design and build are found in the old discontinued forum.

It would be really helpful, and cool, if there were a way for everyone to share / keep track of each other's builds.  There are so many small issues that come up along the way, and I am sure that a lot of people have a lot of different solutions for them.  Is there a resource of site for that other than Instagram?  I'm currently building Petrel Play and I am sure that a lot of the challenges we face along the way are unique to the design we are building.  Is there a place to share photos, build ideas?  Or is this forum it? (not complaining, I just don't want to send dozens of questions per day on this forum :)_)

Thanks, Steven

When you log on to this site look just below the picture at the top of the page, 2nd line down it reads,  "original KayakForum bulletin board,

Klick on this and you will have access to 100's of pages of questions, answers, how-to's, photo's, etc.  Every boat designer either has a web site for discussions or they are all more than willing to answer your questions about their boats if you email or call them. Nick Schade has many 'how-to' video's on his site and answering questions is what this site is all about. There are a lot of available resources to answer every question you have. If you have questions about a particular boat just ask about it here. There is an excellent chance someone has already built it and is more than willing to share the experience.

Personally, instagram, facebook, pinterest etc. are absolutely the last places I would look for adviced on just about anything. Way to many quacks that want to impress you with their superior "intelligence." I would much rather listen to someone who has actually built the item in question and can provide photo's.  - - - Rant over  :)

Thanks, Randy.  I totally agree about the other resources.  I just don't want to clutter up this forum with so many questions that, as a first time kayak building, I will have.  I have restored a 41 ft sailboat, so a lot of the glassing, varnishing etc. is old hat (although I keep learning more).  It's the set-up and preparing for the "land mines" in this process ton which I am focused .  I have watched every Schade video over the past 8 weeks and enjoy them on several levels.  The focus on process vs outcome is calming and reassuring during this chaotic time.

I will definitely check out the old site.  Thanks for all of the advice and tips so far!  More questions to come.

Steven

 

JohnAbercrombie

Fri, 05/22/2020 - 18:44

Steven-

It's nice to see a bit more activity around here!

So, ask away!

Things have been too quiet for the past months.

Personally, instagram, facebook, pinterest etc. are absolutely the last places I would look for advice on just about anything. 

Absolutely! You definitely won't find me there. 

 

For some building and outfitting questions,  you could find useful info at West Coast Paddler forum:

https://www.westcoastpaddler.com/community/forums/boat-and-accessory-building.6/

WCPaddler is also an excellent resource for info on paddling from California, OR,WA,BC to Alaska.

John, you asked for questions so here come a few simple (?) ones:

1.  What is the green tape that Nick uses in his videos for clamping?  Does it matter?  I am trying to go stapleless.  Clearly, there are dozens of different opinions on methods, but for clarity (and sanity), I am going to follow Nick's videos.  So, I am trying to emulate everything I can as much as possible.  Speed in unimportant to me.  

2.  I've taken care to set-up my in and out feed on the table saw as well as I can, but I am still getting some variation in the 3/4" blanks that I will use to rip the strips.  Given that I will be scarfing and butt-joining the strips, I'm assuming that it is important that all of the strips are identical in width.  Accordingly, I am planning the plane the blanks prior to ripping the strips.   I am planning to use 3/16" strips and believe that slight thickness variation can be overcome in sanding / fairing.

Swing away...

JohnAbercrombie

Wed, 05/27/2020 - 19:15

What is the green tape that Nick uses in his videos for clamping? 

I don't know, but my guess would be 3M Scotch 233+ masking tape. 

I've taken care to set-up my in and out feed on the table saw as well as I can, but I am still getting some variation in the 3/4" blanks that I will use to rip the strips.

Are you using a standard rip fence?

Is the board edge straight?

Is the board curving after the first strip is ripped away? ('case hardened' kiln dried lumber?)

Getting the rip setup right will pay off when you are ripping strips. Strips with 'too thin' sections can't really be used until the thin part is cut out and discarded.

1 mm variation in a 20 mm wide strip isn't a big deal, 1 mm variation in a 4 mm strip is!

Given that I will be scarfing and butt-joining the strips, I'm assuming that it is important that all of the strips are identical in width. 

It does make things easier!

If you were considering ripping a bevel on one edge of your strips, you could deal with the width issue at that point.

 

I am using a standard rip fence, and the first blank I ripped had a rough edge, which likely caused the problem.  I will plane the blanks prior to ripping the strips, which means that they will end up .72 inches wide instead of the planned .75 inches.  (I haven't started building yet and that's about the 8th audible - hmmm, I wonder what the over/under should be on total audibles by the time I am finished.)  I believe that I can make the strip ripping more robust.  The boards themselves are true.

I wasn't planning on ripping a bevel on the strips.  I don't remember that from Nicks' videos, which is why I haven't considered it.  Given the curves on the Petrel Play, will that alleviate a lot of the planing required to get tight fits between the strips?

JohnAbercrombie

Wed, 05/27/2020 - 21:04

I wasn't planning on ripping a bevel on the strips.  I don't remember that from Nicks' videos, which is why I haven't considered it.  Given the curves on the Petrel Play, will that alleviate a lot of the planing required to get tight fits between the strips?

I've done pre-bevels a few times, but haven't recently. It wastes some material. Also, I found myself flipping strips end-for-end quite a lot (to get the bevel on the correct edge).

A few degrees of bevel does help to get a tight fit between most of the strips, though hand planing is necessary when the curves get tighter. Using Nick's 'RoboPlane' would probably be a better option, assuming the mini-plane is in stock at LeeValley.

I am using a standard rip fence, and the first blank I ripped had a rough edge, which likely caused the problem.

It would be worthwhile getting some 1-by or 2-by SPF from the  box store or lumberyard to get your ripping setup working perfectly before using your more expensive lumber. (Though you really won't need those extra stir sticks!).

For ripping strips (both the 3/4 'blanks' and the 4mm thick 'boat strips') I use a part-length (wood) fence that doesn't extend past the blade. It saves a lot of kickback problems for me. YMMV, etc...

JohnAbercrombie

Wed, 05/27/2020 - 21:23

Here's a pic of the setup Nick was using some years ago (from a discussion on the 'old' kayakforum):

strip cutting

 

Notice how the wood fence ends mid-blade. (That wood fence needs to be re-positioned if the stock thickness and blade height changes.)

I wouldn't rip strips without adding good in- and out-feed tables, but that pic should give you the idea.

 

 

Thanks, John.  Is the MDF you suggest for a modified fence?  Looking at the picture, I am suprised to see a second feather board past the blade.  I would think that this would create kick-back risk.  Everything else looks similar to the set-up I am planning for the strips.  And, yes, I will have in and out feed tables.

JohnAbercrombie

Thu, 05/28/2020 - 14:09

Thanks, John.  Is the MDF you suggest for a modified fence?  Looking at the picture, I am suprised to see a second feather board past the blade.  I would think that this would create kick-back risk.  Everything else looks similar to the set-up I am planning for the strips.  And, yes, I will have in and out feed tables.

As I said, that's not my setup, but it does show the part-length fence. I don't use featherboards at all - I find they get in the way of my (thin hardwood) push stick. I use two long push sticks and never reach over the blade. (Insert standard legal disclaimer here...my method is not recommended and is probably dangerous, etc etc...)

With the part fence, the ripped strip is free to move away from the blade once cut, since there's no fence to jam it against the blade and cause kickback.

For that part-fence I'd use anything that'a a bit 'slippery' - a piece of melamine shelving? I'm using a piece of finished veneer ply that came from an old hifi console- anything smooth that can take a wax finish will do the job. Usually there are holes in the metal fence that can be used to secure the part fence. If you need to drill into the metal fence be careful to clear the locking rod that's inside on most fences.

I'd suggest experimenting with the part-fence and see how you like it. Don't use it if it seems unsafe or doesn't give you good results on your tests.

I didn't mention MDF - perhaps you are referring to the SPF (spruce pine fir) construction grade lumber I suggested cutting for strip practice?

John, just to follow up on your suggestions.  I have attached a picture of my set-up.  I have a splitter that I added after taking this photo.  I have achieved very consistent results with this.  I made the top feather board out of scrap starboard.  table saw set-up