Sea Kayak Trips Bulletin Board

Re: Not paranoid, just tired of GW's misuse.

Posted By: Ian Johnston
Date: Sunday, 2 September 2001, at 3:00 a.m.

In Response To: Not paranoid, just tired of GW's misuse. (Dale Frolander)

Hi Dale,

: They are using it to push their own environmental
: agenda. My point is that once again it is being used to say that it is
: killing off all of the species including the coral reefs.

It is indisputable, even when those in power (politicians) don't want to face the facts because it won't get them elected, the earths atmosphere has been radically changed in just the last 20 years. Look at the research done in the 50's and compare it to that done in the 90's and it is even more apparent. Research done by scientists who benefit from development I might add, and they are all saying something must be done now.

: So how much
: would you say we have caused the earth to warm up in the last century or
: so since we started burning fossil fuels, a degree or two? The temperature
: of the water that the coral live in varies by more than that?

It is not just the temperature of the oceans and the atmosphere, it is a simple concept of exponential growth. This means that no matter how long it has taken us to reach half the population that the earth can support, it will only be about 50 years to fill the other half!! So the first half takes several thousand maybe even millions of years to fill but the second half takes 50!! Kind of scary, and it is simple statistics that proves this. Reversing exponential growth without radical changes in thinking and traditions is impossible.
The same idea holds for resource consuption, pollution, etc.

: For example, the cars we use today are much
: more environmentally friendly than the one's of 20 years ago even with
: more people driving them, but has that got the radicals off our backs?

Agreed, but the effects of the past will be felt for hundreds of years, for example, all the damage that was done up until now by CFC's will be cleaned up naturally by the earth in about 100 years IF USE OF CFC's IS TOTALLY ELLIMINATED GLOBALLY! Well, guess what, the countries who agreed to limit and eliminate CFC production are fooling themselves because unless EVERYONE stops the effects will not be stopped they will be reduced only marginally. By the way, the U.S.A. did not sign the agreement and I doubt that they will with the election of Dubya to office.

: Before that my grandmas house was heated by shoveling coal into the
: furnace, but I bet she could have told you of some days in North Dakota
: that were just as hot as any I've ever experienced. My point is that we
: have been studying global warming for way too short of a time to be able
: to accurately say what will happen.

NO! We have all the information to make informed decisions and take the actions that will actually reverse the effects caused by past indiscretions. Seeing as how we are saving the earth for our children and grandchildren, is this really a bad idea or should we wait until we are 100% sure that our earth will die in a couple of generations before we take action? In your grandmother's day operations without anisthetic were the norm, should we go back to that? Just because grandma did it doesn't make it good.

: Also, if we produce all of this CO2 emissions that is causing global warming,
: won't that make the environment more friendly to plants? More plants will
: then use up more CO2. You see the earth tries to balance itself if we just
: stop trying to fix it.

The earth has never had a species showup that could alter the environment on such a large scale. NO the earth can not keep up and it will indeed balance itself out. You see, nature doesn't give a shit if humans survive or not. It doesn't care if 90% of the children born have birth defects. It doesn't care if 100% of the people don't survive to middle age because of the air they breath. Nature takes whatever the conditions are and strikes a balance, if that balance says that your granddaughter will die a slow painful death from a lunge disease because her grandfather didn't have the foresight to heed the warning signs, so be it. Kayakers of all people should be aware of natures disregard for their life!!

: And why do we spin out of control if a species dies out (gotta protect those
: 3 blue and white polka-dotted tree climbing zebras)? Many species have
: went extinct and new ones have been born long before people were ever
: here. And if there are so few left, what are the animals that depend on
: them eating? Could they possibly be eating something else? Are we not
: protecting the weak? That might mess up darwin's theory.

Your NOT serious here?? ARE YOU!! Are you suggesting that we are destroying all the natural habitat on earth in an attempt to strengthen the species that are out there? Why don't we go down to the local hospital and inject some newborn babies with poison? THAT WILL TOUGHEN THEM UP!!

: It reminds me of when the Exxon valdez dumped it's oil all over the beachs.

The captain of the Exxon Valdez should have been awarded a medal. He holds the record for the single largest contribution to the gross national product of the U.S. in history. The world needs more of this! Every economy that is in a recession can have an oil tanker run aground on it's shores to boost its economy! If they are in a recession or don't have access to an ocean they could consider a nuclear accident on the scale of Chernobyl!!

: The outdoors are important, and we should protect it, but we need to be able
: to be part of it and USE it with some common sense. Many environmental
: radicals would like to lock everyone out of nature. What they can't get
: locked up, they are buying or trying to have donated to them so that it
: will then be the organizations and can never be used. Weren't we a species
: like all the rest just 100 years ago and could go anywhere in the woods
: that we wanted. When did we get factored out of nature?

A hundred years ago we couldn't change the world like we can today. 100 years ago we couldn't fly and had just invented cars. 100 years ago the population was much lower. 100 years ago the life expectancy was much shorter. 100 years ago Banff National Park in Canada was wilderness, now you can tour it in a friggin bus!! There hasn't been a grizzly bear sighting in the southern park for years!!
OH, I FORGOT!! If a grizzly does show up it will be the toughest creature that ever walked the face of the earth.

: Another point I'm trying to make is that we should not just blindly take the
: media's word for it? Where have YOU directly felt the impact of global
: warming, or do you just know what you know by what others have told you?
: In other words where have YOU seen evidence of global warming? If you
: listen to others (including the media), combine that with your own
: personal experiences and still come up to the same conclusions, then
: great. But if you rely entirely on what you've been told, and don't temper
: it with your own personal experiences, then you will easily be lied to.

Read a book called Billions and Billions by Carl Sagan. He was a physicis who had as much contempt for the media as you do not because the exagerated the effects of global warming but because they wrote pieces of fluff that warned of the effects of global warming and NEVER explained the evidence to regular people. What this meant was that there are people like you who yell for someone to PROVE IT when the evidence is staring you right in the face.

However, this is an issue that is a waste of time arguing simply because you feel that I have an agenda and in fact I do. I want a world that my children and grandchildren can enjoy and that they can pass on to their decendants. If this means that I err on the side of safety and make life a little healthier than it really needs to be, then it is a risk I am willing to take.

Ian

Messages In This Thread

Sea Kayaking in the Florida Keys
Peggy Goddard -- Monday, 13 August 2001, at 1:45 p.m.

Why would it get ruined? *NM*
Dale Frolander -- Monday, 13 August 2001, at 2:08 p.m.

Maybe the anchors from a 30 ft. raft? *NM*
Ed K. -- Monday, 13 August 2001, at 2:22 p.m.

Re: Why would it get ruined?
Peggy Goddard -- Tuesday, 14 August 2001, at 12:14 p.m.

We have met the enemy and it is us.
Shawn Baker -- Tuesday, 14 August 2001, at 12:40 p.m.

Not global warming again.
Dale Frolander -- Thursday, 16 August 2001, at 5:47 p.m.

Re: Not global warming? THANKS "W"
Peggy Goddard -- Thursday, 16 August 2001, at 6:36 p.m.

Re: Not global warming? THANKS "W"
Dale Frolander -- Friday, 17 August 2001, at 1:34 a.m.

NO MORE POLITICS *NM*
Mike Scarborough -- Friday, 17 August 2001, at 9:14 a.m.

Re: Not global warming? THANKS "W"
Shawn Baker -- Monday, 20 August 2001, at 1:56 p.m.

Re: Not global warming again. OT
Rob Forsell -- Friday, 17 August 2001, at 8:08 a.m.

Re: Not global warming again. OT
LeeG -- Friday, 17 August 2001, at 9:27 a.m.

Re: Not global warming again. OT
Charles Cooper -- Friday, 17 August 2001, at 4:04 p.m.

Not paranoid, just tired of GW's misuse.
Dale Frolander -- Tuesday, 21 August 2001, at 1:01 a.m.

Re: Not paranoid, just tired of GW's misuse.
LeeG -- Tuesday, 21 August 2001, at 9:00 a.m.

Re: Not paranoid, just tired of GW's misuse.
Tim Mattson -- Wednesday, 22 August 2001, at 2:19 a.m.

Re: Not paranoid, just tired of GW's misuse.
Ian Johnston -- Sunday, 2 September 2001, at 3:00 a.m.

Re: Not paranoid, just tired of GW's misuse.
Dale Frolander -- Tuesday, 4 September 2001, at 4:17 p.m.

Re: Not paranoid, just tired of GW's misuse.
Ian Johnston -- Tuesday, 4 September 2001, at 9:43 p.m.

Re: Not paranoid, just tired of GW's misuse.
Dale Frolander -- Wednesday, 5 September 2001, at 3:46 a.m.

Re: Government doesn't work for the people anymore
Shawn Baker -- Wednesday, 5 September 2001, at 10:59 a.m.

C'mon, tell what you really think
Ted Henry -- Wednesday, 5 September 2001, at 3:55 p.m.

Re: There's no conceivable way it will work
Shawn Baker -- Wednesday, 5 September 2001, at 6:17 p.m.

Re: snip-snip, end of discussion
Don Beale -- Wednesday, 5 September 2001, at 7:46 p.m.

Re: snip everyone, I say!
Shawn Baker -- Thursday, 6 September 2001, at 11:00 a.m.

Re: snip everyone, I say!
Don Beale -- Thursday, 6 September 2001, at 11:24 a.m.

Re: snip-snip, end of discussion
Ken Sutherland -- Thursday, 6 September 2001, at 2:04 p.m.

Re: How Bad it hurts
Shawn Baker -- Thursday, 6 September 2001, at 4:48 p.m.

Sorry OT
Ken Sutherland -- Thursday, 6 September 2001, at 7:09 p.m.

Re: C'mon, tell what you really think
Ian Johnston -- Saturday, 15 September 2001, at 9:26 p.m.

Great stuff! Shawn Baker in 2004!!! *NM*
Dale Frolander -- Wednesday, 5 September 2001, at 9:55 p.m.

I agree with your thinking Shawn.
John Monfoe -- Thursday, 6 September 2001, at 8:25 a.m.

Re: I heard it put eloquently once...
Don Beale -- Thursday, 6 September 2001, at 11:28 a.m.

Re: Not paranoid, just tired of GW's misuse.
Ian Johnston -- Sunday, 2 September 2001, at 3:20 a.m.

Re: Not paranoid, just tired of GW's misuse.
Ian Johnston -- Sunday, 2 September 2001, at 3:34 a.m.

Re: Not global warming again.
Tim Mattson -- Friday, 17 August 2001, at 7:05 p.m.

Re: Human vs. natural warming
Shawn Baker -- Monday, 20 August 2001, at 2:02 p.m.

sniff sniff... Smells like SPAM to me *NM*
tony B -- Monday, 13 August 2001, at 4:37 p.m.

Re: sniff sniff... Smells like SPAM to me
Peggy Goddard -- Tuesday, 14 August 2001, at 12:23 p.m.

Re: whether SPAM?
Shawn Baker -- Tuesday, 14 August 2001, at 12:45 p.m.

Re: whether SPAM?
Peggy Goddard -- Tuesday, 14 August 2001, at 6:25 p.m.

Re: Kayaking the Keys
Shawn Baker -- Tuesday, 14 August 2001, at 7:53 p.m.

Re: whether SPAM?
LeeG -- Tuesday, 14 August 2001, at 7:58 p.m.

Inexpensive paddle
Ed K. -- Wednesday, 15 August 2001, at 12:30 p.m.

Re: But not a cheap paddle
Shawn Baker -- Wednesday, 15 August 2001, at 10:05 p.m.

Re: whether SPAM?
Mike Boren -- Wednesday, 15 August 2001, at 1:54 p.m.

Re: Peggy, tell more
LeeG -- Tuesday, 14 August 2001, at 3:58 p.m.

Re: sniff sniff...
Mike Scarborough -- Tuesday, 14 August 2001, at 6:09 p.m.

Re: sniff sniff...
Peggy Goddard -- Tuesday, 14 August 2001, at 6:36 p.m.

Not SPAM after all
tony B -- Monday, 20 August 2001, at 2:52 p.m.

Re: yeah, it looks like advertising BUT
LeeG -- Monday, 13 August 2001, at 9:53 p.m.

Re: Sea Kayaking in the Florida Keys
Pete -- Saturday, 15 September 2001, at 8:30 a.m.

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