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Sea Kayaks Techniques Bulletin Board

The Great Rolling Technique Debate

Posted By: Jed
Date: Friday, 8 September 2000, at 12:03 p.m.

In Response To: Re: A matter of opinion - lay back or to the side? (Greg Stamer)

Only a fool would disagree with Roger's post and Murray's and Nick's responses, IMO. But there are many differences between Maligiaq rolling his boat and my students rolling thier boats. Certainly there is the factor of the boat in question. 100% of my students use NA or British designed boats that bear little resemblance to Maligiaq's rolling machine. Some of my students use Greenland style paddles. But none of my students are 19 year old, flexible Greenlanders. Instead, I seem to draw the 40 to 50 year old, stiff backed, mangerial types that haven't kept themselves in the best physical condition.

As a group, my students tend to have very tight Hamstrings, so the chest-on-the-knees forward lean is nearly impossible for them perform. They have seen so many people finish rolls with a layback that they can't imagine a roll without one. My "students" boats often have seat backs rather than back bands aqnd high aft decks, so a usefull layback is nearly impossible. Additionaly, I find that most of my students sacrifice a full hip rotation for the percieved benefit of a mediocre layback.

As Murray had said a while back, we as instructors need to stay flexible with regard to our methods, in order to accomidate any limitations our students might have. While a layback or leanforward can be very advantageous, both require boats and flexability that work in harmony with these techniques. Many of my students, at first, illustrate a relative caucophony of dissonance rather than the harmony required for effective technique.

A final comment: A Greenlander rolls his boat differently than an American would roll a his (modern) boat. I have seen pictures and flim clips of Greenlanders raising their heads too early compared to modern rolling theory, and others than roll with out a hip snap at all. Yes, they still come up, but it is possible that our modern understanding of boimechanics has exceeded the Inuits' rolling model? This certainly is possible, however blasphemous it may sound. All this being said, there are many ways to right a boat. And most people will eventually find a method that suits their body/conditioning/boat/situation. What we are discussing is only a matter of how best to teach beginners to get them started on the right track in their rolling career.

For what is worth, the following is my idea of a perfect roll. This is the roll I aspire to and the roll that I teach my more gifted students. The more flexability-challenged students are taught something that is less demanding. Certainly you will all have differing opinions regarding the "perfect" roll. I only offer this as a potential frame of reference to my posts on this subject

After the capsize:

Push your paddle to the surface, try to clear the paddle from the water.

Pull your chest to the surface with a inverted crunch diagonally towards the same side the paddle is on.

Sweep (or move) the paddle out to 90°, stretching the paddle as far away from the boat as possible, while rotating the torso so that your shoulders are perpendicular to the longitudinal axis of the boat.

Partway through the Paddle sweep, start reversing the lateral flexation of the spine until the spine's flexation is completely reversed. (including the cervical portion of the spine)

Note: as you reverse the flexation of the spine your shoulders will tend to sink a little into the water. Your hold on the paddle will limit this effect as your arms are stretched between your torso and the paddle blade.

Stay in this position as the boat rights then as the rotation starts to stall, sweep the paddle forward towards the bow as you lean towards the fore deck.

Complete the forward sweep with a linked forward stroke on the same side as you sit back upright from the forward lean.

Messages In This Thread

What I learned in rolling today...
Don Beale -- Monday, 4 September 2000, at 7:30 p.m.
Re: What I learned in rolling today...
M. Hamilton -- Monday, 4 September 2000, at 8:40 p.m.
Re: What I learned in rolling today...
Don Beale -- Monday, 4 September 2000, at 10:27 p.m.
Re: What I learned in rolling today...
Jed -- Tuesday, 5 September 2000, at 9:34 a.m.
Re: What I learned in rolling today...
David -- Tuesday, 5 September 2000, at 9:46 a.m.
Re: What I learned in rolling today...
Don Beale -- Tuesday, 5 September 2000, at 12:24 p.m.
A matter of opinion - lay back or to the side?
Jed -- Tuesday, 5 September 2000, at 5:08 p.m.
Re: A matter of opinion - lay back or to the side?
David -- Wednesday, 6 September 2000, at 12:16 a.m.
Re: A matter of opinion - lay back or to the side?
M. Hamilton -- Wednesday, 6 September 2000, at 11:33 a.m.
Re: A matter of opinion - lay back or to the side?
Roger -- Thursday, 7 September 2000, at 5:34 p.m.
Re: A matter of opinion - lay back or to the side?
Greg Stamer -- Thursday, 7 September 2000, at 7:09 p.m.
The Great Rolling Technique Debate
Jed -- Friday, 8 September 2000, at 12:03 p.m.
Re: The Great Rolling Technique Debate
Jed -- Friday, 8 September 2000, at 12:06 p.m.
Re: A matter of opinion - lay back or to the side?
M. Hamilton -- Thursday, 7 September 2000, at 7:13 p.m.
As an instructor you need to do them all *LINK*
C.Spelius -- Thursday, 25 January 2007, at 5:12 p.m.
Re: As an instructor you need to do them all
Reg Lake -- Thursday, 25 January 2007, at 7:46 p.m.
Re: A matter of opinion - lay back or to the side?
Nick Schade -- Friday, 8 September 2000, at 9:22 a.m.
Re: SanJuan Safety...
M. Hamilton -- Tuesday, 5 September 2000, at 2:55 p.m.
Re: SanJuan Safety...
David -- Wednesday, 6 September 2000, at 12:02 a.m.
Re: School Safety...
Shawn B. -- Wednesday, 6 September 2000, at 2:58 p.m.
Re: School Safety...
Don Beale -- Wednesday, 6 September 2000, at 6:01 p.m.
Re: What I learned in rolling today...
Robert Woodard -- Wednesday, 6 September 2000, at 8:27 p.m.
Re: "Anybody out there with glasses "
Mick -- Wednesday, 31 March 2004, at 6:23 p.m.
Re: What I learned in rolling today...
Ed Deery -- Monday, 15 January 2007, at 11:31 p.m.
Sunglasses and rolling
Malcolm Schweizer -- Tuesday, 16 January 2007, at 6:24 p.m.
Re: Sunglasses and rolling
Mike Savage -- Tuesday, 16 January 2007, at 6:44 p.m.
Re: Sunglasses and rolling
Andy Waddington -- Monday, 22 January 2007, at 4:55 a.m.
Re: What I learned in rolling today...
martin lister -- Wednesday, 17 January 2007, at 12:03 a.m.
Yes, Yes, Yes !!!
Jed -- Monday, 4 September 2000, at 10:33 p.m.
Rolling? Does the boat matter?
Craig Bumgarner -- Wednesday, 6 September 2000, at 8:43 a.m.
Re: Rolling? Does the boat matter?
Nick Schade -- Wednesday, 6 September 2000, at 9:22 a.m.
Re: Rolling? Does the boat matter?
WesT -- Wednesday, 6 September 2000, at 5:51 p.m.
Rolling? The boat fit matters
Ray -- Thursday, 7 September 2000, at 8:30 a.m.
Same as I always say
Mick -- Thursday, 1 April 2004, at 12:22 a.m.
Re: Same as I always say
sing -- Thursday, 1 April 2004, at 7:36 a.m.
Rolling summaries by EJ and KenK
Nelson Labbé -- Monday, 5 April 2004, at 9:04 a.m.
Re: Rolling summaries by EJ and KenK
sing -- Monday, 5 April 2004, at 11:08 a.m.
Apology..
sing -- Monday, 5 April 2004, at 11:10 a.m.
Re: Rolling summaries by EJ and KenK
mick -- Tuesday, 6 April 2004, at 9:31 a.m.
Sorry, Mick
sing -- Tuesday, 6 April 2004, at 11:53 a.m.
Re: Sorry, Mick
MikeA -- Tuesday, 6 April 2004, at 6:47 p.m.
What about all-rounders ? *LINK*
mick -- Tuesday, 6 April 2004, at 7:05 p.m.
Re: What about all-rounders ? *LINK*
sing -- Wednesday, 7 April 2004, at 6:37 a.m.
Link *NM* *LINK*
sing -- Wednesday, 7 April 2004, at 6:40 a.m.
Re: Kayak Jumping *LINK*
Klas Kreutzman -- Wednesday, 7 April 2004, at 5:08 p.m.
Re: Kayak Jumping
sing -- Thursday, 8 April 2004, at 10:04 a.m.
Re: Kayak Jumping *LINK*
Reg Lake -- Thursday, 8 April 2004, at 1:53 p.m.
Okay... I'll ask...
sing -- Thursday, 8 April 2004, at 3:23 p.m.
Way to go Sing !
mick -- Friday, 9 April 2004, at 1:36 a.m.
Some Aussie waveski action *LINK*
mick -- Friday, 9 April 2004, at 7:50 a.m.
Re: Some Aussie waveski action
sing -- Friday, 9 April 2004, at 11:10 a.m.
Re: Some Aussie waveski action
mick -- Monday, 12 April 2004, at 1:42 a.m.
Re: What about all-rounders ?
MikeA -- Wednesday, 7 April 2004, at 10:35 a.m.
It's cool
mick -- Tuesday, 6 April 2004, at 6:53 p.m.
I hear ya; Love the Greenland Paddle
Nelson Labbé -- Wednesday, 7 April 2004, at 9:04 a.m.
Re: I hear ya; Love the Greenland Paddle
sing -- Friday, 9 April 2004, at 5:19 a.m.

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