Sea Kayaks Techniques Bulletin Board

Re: safety warnings

Posted By: Nick Schade - Guillemot Kayaks
Date: Wednesday, 29 May 2002, at 9:48 a.m.

In Response To: Re: Forget David... Let's play some pool. (Brianne Corbett)

I just did a quick survey of rock climbing sites. Black Diamond, Petzl and several rope manufacturers. The only warning about the risk I could find was a brief disclaimer paragraph on the "legal" page of the Petzl site. The Dagger warning is much more comprehensive and was in a place much more likely for people to read. And the Perception site has a discussion forum where safety is discussed. I don't see that the paddling industry is irresponsibly unusual in the lack of warning they provide.

Is glorifying a paddle out around a lighthouse in Boston Harbor irresponsible? It involves a significant risk of death if undertaken by an inexperienced paddler. However, for an experienced paddler it is not that risky at all. The same holds true for dropping off a waterfall. The barriers to entry in kayaking are sufficient that you won't get crazy teenagers going out to waterfalls on a lark. They must first obtain a thousand $$ worth of gear, load it on a car and generally drive several days to the put in. Most stupid teenagers are going just jump on a skateboard and try to ride down a staircase instead. You overestimate the ambition of the average testosterone crazed kid if you think they are going to float over a waterfall just because they saw a picture on a website.

And the statistics just don't support your contention. There are not that many deaths of inexperienced paddlers in these truly risky aspects of kayaking. The deaths tend to be amoung top level paddlers who are well aware of the risks.

Inexperienced paddlers tend to die doing easy things. Their deaths are no less unnecessary, but advertising the extreme aspects of the sport doesn't have much relevence to them.

While extreme video may make a paddle on a pond look safe in comparison, the programming I see on even mild conditions show paddlers wearing appropriate safety gear such as PFDs. The deaths of beginners almost always involve someone who was not wearing the PFD. If these programs were as influential as you suggest, people would be emulating what they see and also wear PFDs.

As an experiment to judge the effectiveness of warnings, next time you see someone paddling without a PFD say to them "Paddling without wearing a PFD is risking death even in calm conditions." Then step back and watch how many of these people turn around and get their PFDs or pull them out of their back hatch and put them on. If you get 1 person out of 10 to put on a PFD I will be amazed.

It is not so much that the warnings are insufficient, but that people don't like to believe bad news. While increasing the warnings may sway a few people, I don't believe that an increase would result in a proportional increase in safety. Unfortunately, people are not ready to accept much safety advice until they get some personal experience that relates to the risk.

: They do have a nice new manual which is quite acceptable to me. They did not
: always have such a strong safety orientation in their manuals... but I am
: happy with the latest version.

: I am not happy with their TV programs nor am I happy with their website. The
: manual is buried as a single link under Warranty. The safety info in the
: site other than this single link is dismal in comparison. Then you have to
: counterbalance what good info they do have with bad stuff like this:
: http://www.kayaker.com/community/updates.asp

: The notion of glorifying running a 23 foot dam (with backroller) with no
: mention whatsoever of the dangers involved is insanity. They do this
: constantly.... dam running... waterfalls... creeking... surf kayaking...
: ocean touring... they hit em all. They bury the really well done warnings
: and thrust into your face incredibly dangerous stuff made to look super
: exciting and marketable. The company is almost schizophrenic.

: Oh... I don't know... Teva sandals don't at this time "enable" one
: to kayak... they provide no necessary or sufficient condition of
: kayaking... so I would not require it of them. PFD's specifically designed
: for kayakers... absolutely. PFD's specifically designed for waterskiing...
: No... they would have their own warnings pertinent to that activity,
: assuming that it has a sufficient inherent risk.

: Breaking an ankle and death are radically different levels of risk. This
: difference is recognized in the law and should be recognized by common
: sense.

: Running a waterfall is very dangerous. Running a dam is very dangerous. The
: activity should not be encouraged. It should be discouraged.
: Impressionable young people under peer pressure are going to do it. I view
: creating a culture of warnings to them as something akin to the way
: project DARE's warnings operate with drugs.

: Your point is well taken. but I think you can see that I have been alluding
: to more than just the empty words... but to the spin on the words... as
: you point out, danger can be a positive motivator if you spin it to young
: people who get praise for doing more and more risky things.

: Dopers put a lot of pressure on others to do drugs... not to be sissies etc.
: Project DARE tried to change the spin... to make young people feel that
: taking the risk of doing drugs is dumb... not something worthy of praise.

: We need to do something like that. Perception needs to do something like
: that. I tried to do something like that when one boy tried to convince 3
: of his friends to jump off Miner's Castle Rock at Pictured Rocks into Lake
: Superior... a 100' sheer drop to bedrock shelf under a few feet of water.
: From down below I tried to tell these boys that the jump can compress
: their spines and paralyze them for life. I lost... the boy called them
: sissies and yellow... they all jumped... and survived... exhilarated and
: ready to boast of their great feat... until one of them or a friend dies a
: the base of Miner's Castle.

: I'll keep warning boys who want to jump from Miner's Castle. If only so I
: don't have to rescue them or fish out their dead bodies. I don't know
: exactly how to put the right spin on the warning. But I will keep trying
: to find it... because I believe it is the right thing to do.

: Safe Paddling!
: Brianne

Messages In This Thread

pfd doubts
Petewp -- Tuesday, 14 May 2002, at 9:03 p.m.

Re: pfd doubts
DLonborg -- Tuesday, 14 May 2002, at 9:42 p.m.

Re: pfd doubts
Charles Cooper -- Tuesday, 14 May 2002, at 10:46 p.m.

Re: pfd doubts
Ted Henry -- Wednesday, 15 May 2002, at 10:50 a.m.

Re: pfd doubts
DLonborg -- Wednesday, 15 May 2002, at 1:34 p.m.

Re: pfd doubts
Ted Henry -- Wednesday, 15 May 2002, at 3:42 p.m.

Re: I sink without a PFD.
Shawn Baker -- Wednesday, 15 May 2002, at 7:21 p.m.

Re: I sink without a PFD.
Alex M -- Thursday, 16 May 2002, at 4:25 a.m.

Re: Bow flip/drain
Shawn Baker -- Thursday, 16 May 2002, at 12:03 p.m.

Re: Bow flip/drain w/ Paddle Float
Jed -- Thursday, 16 May 2002, at 7:49 p.m.

Re: I sink without a PFD.
Kurt Hoffman -- Thursday, 16 May 2002, at 7:48 p.m.

Re: I sink without a PFD.
Grant G -- Friday, 17 May 2002, at 5:15 a.m.

Re: I sink without a PFD.
Craig Beverly -- Wednesday, 22 May 2002, at 1:20 a.m.

Re: pfd doubts
LeeG -- Wednesday, 15 May 2002, at 12:01 a.m.

Re: pfd doubts
Petewp -- Thursday, 16 May 2002, at 10:46 p.m.

Re: pfd doubts
LeeG -- Thursday, 16 May 2002, at 11:12 p.m.

Re: pfd doubts
Reg -- Friday, 17 May 2002, at 1:37 a.m.

Re: kapok
LeeG -- Friday, 17 May 2002, at 7:42 a.m.

Re: kapok
Topher -- Friday, 17 May 2002, at 9:27 a.m.

Re: kapok
Craig Mackinnon -- Friday, 17 May 2002, at 9:54 a.m.

Re: pfd doubts
Nick Schade - Guillemot Kayaks -- Friday, 17 May 2002, at 9:30 a.m.

Re: pfd doubts
Topher -- Friday, 17 May 2002, at 4:56 p.m.

Re: That's some pretty fancy circular reasoning
Shawn Baker -- Friday, 17 May 2002, at 5:40 p.m.

Re: pfd doubts
Craig Mackinnon -- Friday, 17 May 2002, at 6:15 p.m.

Re: pfd doubts
Nick Schade - Guillemot Kayaks -- Friday, 17 May 2002, at 8:12 p.m.

Re: pfd doubts
LeeG -- Friday, 17 May 2002, at 11:14 p.m.

A dare for Lee
Grant G -- Saturday, 18 May 2002, at 4:27 a.m.

Re: A dare for Lee
LeeG -- Saturday, 18 May 2002, at 9:36 a.m.

It helps the Coast Guard........
Bruce S. -- Wednesday, 15 May 2002, at 12:05 a.m.

Re: It helps the Coast Guard........
Bob Kelim -- Sunday, 19 May 2002, at 8:48 p.m.

Re: pfd doubts
David -- Wednesday, 15 May 2002, at 2:08 a.m.

Re: pfd doubts
Dan St. Gean -- Wednesday, 15 May 2002, at 9:01 a.m.

Re: pfd doubts
LeeG -- Wednesday, 15 May 2002, at 5:52 p.m.

Re: pfd doubts
Dan St. Gean -- Thursday, 16 May 2002, at 11:50 a.m.

Re: topic
LeeG -- Thursday, 16 May 2002, at 11:59 a.m.

Re: topic
Dan St. Gean -- Thursday, 16 May 2002, at 1:14 p.m.

Re: pfd doubts
Nick Schade - Guillemot Kayaks -- Wednesday, 15 May 2002, at 9:06 a.m.

Listen to Nick
David -- Wednesday, 15 May 2002, at 9:35 a.m.

Face Up
don flowers -- Wednesday, 15 May 2002, at 10:43 a.m.

eye opening
mike allen ---> -- Wednesday, 15 May 2002, at 4:40 p.m.

Re: pfd doubts
sing -- Wednesday, 15 May 2002, at 10:46 a.m.

Her Demand
Brianne Corbett -- Wednesday, 15 May 2002, at 4:06 p.m.

Re: Her Demand
Topher -- Thursday, 16 May 2002, at 10:38 a.m.

Re: Asking questions...
Shawn Baker -- Thursday, 16 May 2002, at 12:00 p.m.

Fashion statements...
Craig Mackinnon -- Thursday, 16 May 2002, at 2:23 p.m.

Re: head injuries
LeeG -- Thursday, 16 May 2002, at 12:02 p.m.

Re: Her Demand
Brianne Corbett -- Sunday, 19 May 2002, at 12:08 a.m.

Error correction.
Brianne Corbett -- Sunday, 19 May 2002, at 12:13 a.m.

Re: pfd doubts
gene -- Wednesday, 15 May 2002, at 4:06 p.m.

Re: pfd doubts
Nick Schade - Guillemot Kayaks -- Wednesday, 15 May 2002, at 6:21 p.m.

Re: pfd doubts
gene -- Wednesday, 15 May 2002, at 6:39 p.m.

sometimes pfd
mike allen ---> -- Wednesday, 15 May 2002, at 4:28 p.m.

Re: I'm a role model, even for goobers.
Shawn Baker -- Wednesday, 15 May 2002, at 7:18 p.m.

Re: pfd doubts
Andy Miller -- Thursday, 16 May 2002, at 11:02 a.m.

Unequal Blubber
Eric -- Friday, 17 May 2002, at 5:57 a.m.

Re: Unequal Blubber
David -- Sunday, 19 May 2002, at 7:04 a.m.

Re: Unequal Blubber
Brianne Corbett -- Sunday, 19 May 2002, at 8:23 p.m.

Re: Unequal Blubber
David -- Monday, 20 May 2002, at 11:16 a.m.

Re: Unequal Blubber
Brianne Corbett -- Monday, 20 May 2002, at 5:12 p.m.

Re: Unequal Blubber
David -- Monday, 20 May 2002, at 10:49 p.m.

Re: Unequal Blubber
David -- Monday, 20 May 2002, at 10:50 p.m.

This response is not about kayaking... sorry all.
Brianne Corbett -- Tuesday, 21 May 2002, at 6:33 p.m.

Re: This response is not about kayaking... sorry a
Pete S -- Wednesday, 22 May 2002, at 9:41 a.m.

Re: This response is not about kayaking... sorry a
Carnivore -- Wednesday, 22 May 2002, at 10:34 p.m.

Re: This response is not about kayaking... sorry a
David -- Wednesday, 22 May 2002, at 9:47 a.m.

Gee Bree, did David strike a nerve?
Brian Nystrom -- Wednesday, 22 May 2002, at 12:20 p.m.

Re: Gee Bree, did David strike a nerve?
David -- Wednesday, 22 May 2002, at 4:28 p.m.

Re: Gee Bree, did David strike a nerve?
Brianne Corbett -- Thursday, 23 May 2002, at 7:31 p.m.

Forget David... Let's play some pool.
Brianne Corbett -- Thursday, 23 May 2002, at 7:28 p.m.

Re: Human Nature
Robert -- Friday, 24 May 2002, at 12:23 p.m.

Re: Forget David... Let's play some pool.
Brian Nystrom -- Friday, 24 May 2002, at 1:07 p.m.

Re: Forget David... Let's play some pool.
Brianne Corbett -- Saturday, 25 May 2002, at 1:03 a.m.

Re: Forget David... Let's play some pool.
Brian Nystrom -- Saturday, 25 May 2002, at 10:07 a.m.

Re: Forget David... Let's play some pool.
Nick Schade - Guillemot Kayaks -- Friday, 24 May 2002, at 2:47 p.m.

Re: Forget David... Let's play some pool.
Brianne Corbett -- Saturday, 25 May 2002, at 1:19 a.m.

Re: Forget David... Let's play some pool.
Brian Nystrom -- Saturday, 25 May 2002, at 10:37 a.m.

Re: Forget David... Let's play some pool.
Brianne Corbett -- Tuesday, 28 May 2002, at 9:15 p.m.

Re: Forget David... Let's play some pool.
Nick Schade - Guillemot Kayaks -- Tuesday, 28 May 2002, at 10:24 a.m.

Re: Forget David... Let's play some pool.
Brianne Corbett -- Tuesday, 28 May 2002, at 9:06 p.m.

Re: safety warnings
Nick Schade - Guillemot Kayaks -- Wednesday, 29 May 2002, at 9:48 a.m.

Sea Kayaks Techniques Bulletin Board is maintained by Nick Schade - Guillemot Kayaks with WebBBS 5.12.