Sea Kayaks Techniques Bulletin Board

Re: Forget David... Let's play some pool.

Posted By: Brian Nystrom
Date: Saturday, 25 May 2002, at 10:07 a.m.

In Response To: Re: Forget David... Let's play some pool. (Brianne Corbett)

: Why is it that you all are so bent out of shape because I tell someone that I
: used to teach Philosophy?

I'm not at all.

: I'm not concerned at all because I don't believe I have been inconsistent.
: Since you don't want to take the time to produce the evidence. I will move
: on from this issue.

Here, let me jog your memory a bit. Do you want "full disclosure" (which you demanded in all caps with exclamation points, IIRC) or is a small warning label telling people that there are risks associated with kayaking and that they need to get proper training enough?

: I never used the term "babysit" and your use of it distorts what I
: actually said.

I don't think it does at all. You expect everyone to be constantly sticking warnings in the consumer's face and call them irresponsible if they don't. You would hold them legally liable as well. I find that to be a pretty extreme position that smacks of "Big Brotherism".

: Yes.. usage instructions showing illustrations of ways to use the product and
: illustrations of ways not to use the product with skull and crossbones
: superimposed! You forgot to mention the second set of illustrations.

Actually, I mentioned it farther down.

: The point has to do with the company's consistent and persistent and
: relentless focus on customer awareness of the risks involved in the use of
: the product... risks both obvious and not so obvious.

In Petzl's case, they're offering training in the use of the product on the label. Exactly how would you have a kayak manufacturer do this? I don't see how this could possibly be workable.

: It isn't a departure at all. They have alerted the consumer of the risks and
: instructed them on the proper course of action. The ball is now in the
: consumer's court.

Funny, that sounds like "personal responsibility", which is what I've been touting all along.

: Quite a different situation than if Petzl had said
: NOTHING at all and simply assumed that the consumer knows all the risks or
: should know them and that the consumer bears all responsibility despite
: Petzl saying NOTHING.

I never advocated that manufacturers do nothing. I objected to your previous demands for "full disclosure" from everyone in the product delivery chain. It's unreasonable and unworkable.

: I have already given you a sample statement in several posts. I never never
: sought a term paper with every possible situation covered. I just want
: people to have a fair explanation of the inherent danger/risk (up to and
: including death) of the activity and the necessity for proper training and
: equipment to minimize the risk. I want the statement issued by all
: "enablers"... those who enable people to participate in the
: activity. I want it in their face just as the mountaineering companies put
: their little warnings in your face.

You're still being evasive, Bree. What is a "fair explanation"? How detailed must it be? Be specific. If the warnings on the mountaineering labels, which simply state that there is a risk of injury or death and shift the burder of training to the consumer are enough, that's fine with me.

: Fine... that happened to be a point that we clashed on with you feeling that
: manufacturers shouldn't be held liable. Well they are... that's the fact.
: And they are protecting their asses by protecting the asses of the people
: they sell their stuff to. Maybe most of the peiople will ignore the
: warnings. Fine... they were warned. But then maybe some people will not
: ignore them. Some folks may take classes... study up on techniques and
: equipment. Save their lives by not falling off the mountain... or drowning
: at sea.

Other than the infamous suit that forced Chouinard Equipment to evolve into Black Diamond, I haven't heard of many suits in the climbing industry. I suspect this is because juries regard climbing as inherently dangerous. I would imagine they would regard whitewater kayaking in the same light. Sea kayaking is probably not seen as inherently dangerous and I don't believe it should be. For the majority of people who buy kayaks - most of whom splash around their local ponds in the summer - it isn't, beyond the innate dangers of any water sport.

: It shouldn't be mandatory because every company in their business should have
: been doing it from moment one voluntarily... same with kayaking companies.
: But they didn't do it voluntarily... so they were forced to do it by the
: fear of adverse legal verdicts. Now they are smart marketingwise and smart
: legalwise... maybe even smart ethicswise.

Absolute nonsense! VERY FEW companies in the climbing industry do what Petzl does. Actually, I can't think of ANY others, offhand, and it doesn't appear to be causing a flood of lawsuits. What Petzl does beyond standard industry practices is entirely voluntary. As I said before, I think this is commendable and I agree with you that it's smart, but it's not required, nor should it be.

: Gear loops are pretty simple to understand... nothing counterintuitive... of
: course tying in your rope to the gear loop gets a skull and crossbones...
: because if ya somehow... someway think the loop can hold the weight...
: you're gonna die.

Now we're back into usage instructions again. How would you do this on a kayak? The answer is that you can't, which is why I don't see any strong correlation between the two products. It might work for a PFD, or a tow rig or other safety gear, but it won't work for boats.

: Not at all. The warning labels are small and have much less info. I sent you
: samples from the ATV's, mountaineering companies, and some for kayaks.

: That helps make them more effective as it is a problem to get people to pay
: attention to them.

Wait a minute; "small" and "much less info" = "more effective"? What happened to "in your face" and "full dislosure"?

: I peeled off over almost dozen of them today from 11 bent-gate biners I got
: on an internet sale. I didn't read all of them... but I read some of them
: and that's all that matters.

And you think the typical climber does anything but grumble about them as they try to get the gum off the 'biners? I suggest that your focus on reading warning material is atypical, especially of climbers.

: Not at all... I think they are all very responsible. In fact, all these
: mountaineeering manufacturers force their retailers to transmit their own
: product warnings. They take this thing seriously. That's why I use them as
: a running example. They deal in an inherently dangerous sport...

There's the rub. I don't view kayaking this way.

: they don't hide the danger or minimize it.

Neither do kayak manufacturers. You're sliding back into the "corporate conspiracy" quagmire.

: Instead they concentrate on making
: sure that the user understands and thereby assumes the responsibility of
: properly using the equipment and techniques associated with specific
: equipment... like properly using a GriGri belay device.

Again, Petzl is atypical. Most companies use the minimum amount of labeling that they can legally get away with and those labels are non-specific and shift the resposibility to the consumer. They include instuctions where necessary, usually in a document separate from the warning label, as to kayak manufacturers. I don't see them being sued into oblivion, so apparently the courts consider this to be enough.

: Fine... this agreement by you is a start.

I've never said otherwise. It's you who has been inconsistent and vague. I think such labels are largely a waste, but I'm not opposed to them.

: They might not... who knows. I never assume what others will do. I just run
: the test and see what happens.

Go for it then. Let us know what you get back.

: In any case, we are done. Game is over. You
: shot well... I like to think that I made some nice shots too. In any
: case... we have agreed to disagree on some stuff and agreed to agree on
: others.

Sorry, but I wasn't quite ready to take my marbles and go home.

: Now I can enjoy the holiday and go paddling. I hope you also enjoy yours...
: and make sure you don't breathe any water or we might not be able to do
: this again!

Thanks, you too, Bree.

Messages In This Thread

pfd doubts
Petewp -- Tuesday, 14 May 2002, at 9:03 p.m.

Re: pfd doubts
DLonborg -- Tuesday, 14 May 2002, at 9:42 p.m.

Re: pfd doubts
Charles Cooper -- Tuesday, 14 May 2002, at 10:46 p.m.

Re: pfd doubts
Ted Henry -- Wednesday, 15 May 2002, at 10:50 a.m.

Re: pfd doubts
DLonborg -- Wednesday, 15 May 2002, at 1:34 p.m.

Re: pfd doubts
Ted Henry -- Wednesday, 15 May 2002, at 3:42 p.m.

Re: I sink without a PFD.
Shawn Baker -- Wednesday, 15 May 2002, at 7:21 p.m.

Re: I sink without a PFD.
Alex M -- Thursday, 16 May 2002, at 4:25 a.m.

Re: Bow flip/drain
Shawn Baker -- Thursday, 16 May 2002, at 12:03 p.m.

Re: Bow flip/drain w/ Paddle Float
Jed -- Thursday, 16 May 2002, at 7:49 p.m.

Re: I sink without a PFD.
Kurt Hoffman -- Thursday, 16 May 2002, at 7:48 p.m.

Re: I sink without a PFD.
Grant G -- Friday, 17 May 2002, at 5:15 a.m.

Re: I sink without a PFD.
Craig Beverly -- Wednesday, 22 May 2002, at 1:20 a.m.

Re: pfd doubts
LeeG -- Wednesday, 15 May 2002, at 12:01 a.m.

Re: pfd doubts
Petewp -- Thursday, 16 May 2002, at 10:46 p.m.

Re: pfd doubts
LeeG -- Thursday, 16 May 2002, at 11:12 p.m.

Re: pfd doubts
Reg -- Friday, 17 May 2002, at 1:37 a.m.

Re: kapok
LeeG -- Friday, 17 May 2002, at 7:42 a.m.

Re: kapok
Topher -- Friday, 17 May 2002, at 9:27 a.m.

Re: kapok
Craig Mackinnon -- Friday, 17 May 2002, at 9:54 a.m.

Re: pfd doubts
Nick Schade - Guillemot Kayaks -- Friday, 17 May 2002, at 9:30 a.m.

Re: pfd doubts
Topher -- Friday, 17 May 2002, at 4:56 p.m.

Re: That's some pretty fancy circular reasoning
Shawn Baker -- Friday, 17 May 2002, at 5:40 p.m.

Re: pfd doubts
Craig Mackinnon -- Friday, 17 May 2002, at 6:15 p.m.

Re: pfd doubts
Nick Schade - Guillemot Kayaks -- Friday, 17 May 2002, at 8:12 p.m.

Re: pfd doubts
LeeG -- Friday, 17 May 2002, at 11:14 p.m.

A dare for Lee
Grant G -- Saturday, 18 May 2002, at 4:27 a.m.

Re: A dare for Lee
LeeG -- Saturday, 18 May 2002, at 9:36 a.m.

It helps the Coast Guard........
Bruce S. -- Wednesday, 15 May 2002, at 12:05 a.m.

Re: It helps the Coast Guard........
Bob Kelim -- Sunday, 19 May 2002, at 8:48 p.m.

Re: pfd doubts
David -- Wednesday, 15 May 2002, at 2:08 a.m.

Re: pfd doubts
Dan St. Gean -- Wednesday, 15 May 2002, at 9:01 a.m.

Re: pfd doubts
LeeG -- Wednesday, 15 May 2002, at 5:52 p.m.

Re: pfd doubts
Dan St. Gean -- Thursday, 16 May 2002, at 11:50 a.m.

Re: topic
LeeG -- Thursday, 16 May 2002, at 11:59 a.m.

Re: topic
Dan St. Gean -- Thursday, 16 May 2002, at 1:14 p.m.

Re: pfd doubts
Nick Schade - Guillemot Kayaks -- Wednesday, 15 May 2002, at 9:06 a.m.

Listen to Nick
David -- Wednesday, 15 May 2002, at 9:35 a.m.

Face Up
don flowers -- Wednesday, 15 May 2002, at 10:43 a.m.

eye opening
mike allen ---> -- Wednesday, 15 May 2002, at 4:40 p.m.

Re: pfd doubts
sing -- Wednesday, 15 May 2002, at 10:46 a.m.

Her Demand
Brianne Corbett -- Wednesday, 15 May 2002, at 4:06 p.m.

Re: Her Demand
Topher -- Thursday, 16 May 2002, at 10:38 a.m.

Re: Asking questions...
Shawn Baker -- Thursday, 16 May 2002, at 12:00 p.m.

Fashion statements...
Craig Mackinnon -- Thursday, 16 May 2002, at 2:23 p.m.

Re: head injuries
LeeG -- Thursday, 16 May 2002, at 12:02 p.m.

Re: Her Demand
Brianne Corbett -- Sunday, 19 May 2002, at 12:08 a.m.

Error correction.
Brianne Corbett -- Sunday, 19 May 2002, at 12:13 a.m.

Re: pfd doubts
gene -- Wednesday, 15 May 2002, at 4:06 p.m.

Re: pfd doubts
Nick Schade - Guillemot Kayaks -- Wednesday, 15 May 2002, at 6:21 p.m.

Re: pfd doubts
gene -- Wednesday, 15 May 2002, at 6:39 p.m.

sometimes pfd
mike allen ---> -- Wednesday, 15 May 2002, at 4:28 p.m.

Re: I'm a role model, even for goobers.
Shawn Baker -- Wednesday, 15 May 2002, at 7:18 p.m.

Re: pfd doubts
Andy Miller -- Thursday, 16 May 2002, at 11:02 a.m.

Unequal Blubber
Eric -- Friday, 17 May 2002, at 5:57 a.m.

Re: Unequal Blubber
David -- Sunday, 19 May 2002, at 7:04 a.m.

Re: Unequal Blubber
Brianne Corbett -- Sunday, 19 May 2002, at 8:23 p.m.

Re: Unequal Blubber
David -- Monday, 20 May 2002, at 11:16 a.m.

Re: Unequal Blubber
Brianne Corbett -- Monday, 20 May 2002, at 5:12 p.m.

Re: Unequal Blubber
David -- Monday, 20 May 2002, at 10:49 p.m.

Re: Unequal Blubber
David -- Monday, 20 May 2002, at 10:50 p.m.

This response is not about kayaking... sorry all.
Brianne Corbett -- Tuesday, 21 May 2002, at 6:33 p.m.

Re: This response is not about kayaking... sorry a
Pete S -- Wednesday, 22 May 2002, at 9:41 a.m.

Re: This response is not about kayaking... sorry a
Carnivore -- Wednesday, 22 May 2002, at 10:34 p.m.

Re: This response is not about kayaking... sorry a
David -- Wednesday, 22 May 2002, at 9:47 a.m.

Gee Bree, did David strike a nerve?
Brian Nystrom -- Wednesday, 22 May 2002, at 12:20 p.m.

Re: Gee Bree, did David strike a nerve?
David -- Wednesday, 22 May 2002, at 4:28 p.m.

Re: Gee Bree, did David strike a nerve?
Brianne Corbett -- Thursday, 23 May 2002, at 7:31 p.m.

Forget David... Let's play some pool.
Brianne Corbett -- Thursday, 23 May 2002, at 7:28 p.m.

Re: Human Nature
Robert -- Friday, 24 May 2002, at 12:23 p.m.

Re: Forget David... Let's play some pool.
Brian Nystrom -- Friday, 24 May 2002, at 1:07 p.m.

Re: Forget David... Let's play some pool.
Brianne Corbett -- Saturday, 25 May 2002, at 1:03 a.m.

Re: Forget David... Let's play some pool.
Brian Nystrom -- Saturday, 25 May 2002, at 10:07 a.m.

Re: Forget David... Let's play some pool.
Nick Schade - Guillemot Kayaks -- Friday, 24 May 2002, at 2:47 p.m.

Re: Forget David... Let's play some pool.
Brianne Corbett -- Saturday, 25 May 2002, at 1:19 a.m.

Re: Forget David... Let's play some pool.
Brian Nystrom -- Saturday, 25 May 2002, at 10:37 a.m.

Re: Forget David... Let's play some pool.
Brianne Corbett -- Tuesday, 28 May 2002, at 9:15 p.m.

Re: Forget David... Let's play some pool.
Nick Schade - Guillemot Kayaks -- Tuesday, 28 May 2002, at 10:24 a.m.

Re: Forget David... Let's play some pool.
Brianne Corbett -- Tuesday, 28 May 2002, at 9:06 p.m.

Re: safety warnings
Nick Schade - Guillemot Kayaks -- Wednesday, 29 May 2002, at 9:48 a.m.

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