Sea Kayaks Techniques Bulletin Board

Re: Forget David... Let's play some pool.

Posted By: Brianne Corbett
Date: Saturday, 25 May 2002, at 1:03 a.m.

In Response To: Re: Forget David... Let's play some pool. (Brian Nystrom)

: That's exactly the point; you have let your emotions overide your reason. One
: would think that someone who's willing to expound on their debating
: qualifications to the degree that you do would have better control,
: especially considering you have ample time to review and edit your words
: before you post them.

Why is it that you all are so bent out of shape because I tell someone that I used to teach Philosophy? The guy was wrong. He was ready to start debating philosophy... specific philosophers and their views. He was getting ready to lay down the rules of engagement. I really didn't want to spend a ton of time explaining Immanuel Kant's "Critique of Pure Reason" to an untrained person on a sea kayak BBS. I think that what I did was pretty reasonable and not at all emotional given the circumstances. I even titled the message to warn off people not interested in that thread. But OK fine... I used to teach Philosophy... big deal. So I am not popular... whoop tee doo.

: I've pointed them out repeatedly and I'm not going to waste my time digging
: back through old posts to do so again. I will state that the biggest
: contraditions are related to what standards you expect manufacturers and
: dealers to live up to. Since these are your words, I suggest you do the
: research, if you're really concerned.

I'm not concerned at all because I don't believe I have been inconsistent. Since you don't want to take the time to produce the evidence. I will move on from this issue.

: You haven't presented any convincing arguments, so no, I don't think you have
: any chance of changing my mind. You seem to believe that it's the job of
: everyone in the product delivery chain to babysit their customers and I
: prefer to emphasize personal responsibility. We may end up having to agree
: to disagree.

I never used the term "babysit" and your use of it distorts what I actually said. So we will agree to disagree on this.

: I'm sure we'll lock horns again sooner or later.

I suppose we will.

: You made your pride abundantly evident in your reply to David. I understand
: that you're proud of your acomplishments and knowledge, but I doubt I'm
: the only one here who thinks you went a bit overboard in your chest
: thumping.

Explained above.

: Hmmm, let's see. They're a european company that sells into countries where
: people speak these languages. I think they call that
: "marketing". You didn't mention the fact that most of the
: information on the paperwork is usage instructions; it's the owner's
: manual. The Pentax camera I bought recently has a larger manual in more
: languages. I fail to see any significance here.

Yes.. usage instructions showing illustrations of ways to use the product and illustrations of ways not to use the product with skull and crossbones superimposed! You forgot to mention the second set of illustrations.

: My Petzl Jump harness has a much smaller label, but it's a few years old. The
: warning section on it is only 1" x 1 1/4" in size and the text
: is so small that I need magnification to read it (one of the downsides to
: being over 40). The rest of it is usage instructions and diagrams. What's
: your point?

The point has to do with the company's consistent and persistent and relentless focus on customer awareness of the risks involved in the use of the product... risks both obvious and not so obvious.

: Gee, imagine that! They tell you that the activity is dangerous and that YOU,
: THE CONSUMER is responsible for getting proper training in the use of the
: product. That sounds good to me. Does this satisfy you, Bree? If so, it's
: a major departure from what you were asking for previously.

It isn't a departure at all. They have alerted the consumer of the risks and instructed them on the proper course of action. The ball is now in the consumer's court. Quite a different situation than if Petzl had said NOTHING at all and simply assumed that the consumer knows all the risks or should know them and that the consumer bears all responsibility despite Petzl saying NOTHING.

: What happened to your demand for "full disclosure"? You've ducked
: this question repeatedly and I'd appreciate an answer. Better yet, define
: your requirements PRECISELY, so there can be no misunderstanding going
: forward.

I have already given you a sample statement in several posts. I never never sought a term paper with every possible situation covered. I just want people to have a fair explanation of the inherent danger/risk (up to and including death) of the activity and the necessity for proper training and equipment to minimize the risk. I want the statement issued by all "enablers"... those who enable people to participate in the activity. I want it in their face just as the mountaineering companies put their little warnings in your face.

: A few points: 1) They are quite obviously covering their asses legally.
: Especially in the case of the retailer, this is probably the primary
: driving force behind the warning.

Fine... that happened to be a point that we clashed on with you feeling that manufacturers shouldn't be held liable. Well they are... that's the fact. And they are protecting their asses by protecting the asses of the people they sell their stuff to. Maybe most of the peiople will ignore the warnings. Fine... they were warned. But then maybe some people will not ignore them. Some folks may take classes... study up on techniques and equipment. Save their lives by not falling off the mountain... or drowning at sea.

: 2) Petzl is well known for being a very information-oriented company. As you
: probably know, their catalog contains a wealth of information on climbing
: that is not even specific to their products, though it does promote them.
: I think this is highly commendable on their part and certainly welcome,
: but I don't think it should be mandatory.

It shouldn't be mandatory because every company in their business should have been doing it from moment one voluntarily... same with kayaking companies. But they didn't do it voluntarily... so they were forced to do it by the fear of adverse legal verdicts. Now they are smart marketingwise and smart legalwise... maybe even smart ethicswise.

: 3) Petzl is in the business of make SAFETY equipment. Not only that, but much
: of their gear is quite unique in design and use, compared to the gear
: climbers typically use. The operation of some of them is counterintuitive
: to someone who has been using more mainstream products (e.g. the Gri-Gri
: vs. the ATC and similar devices). This necessitates that they include
: detailed operational instructions with warnings about the consequence of
: improper use.

Gear loops are pretty simple to understand... nothing counterintuitive... of course tying in your rope to the gear loop gets a skull and crossbones... because if ya somehow... someway think the loop can hold the weight... you're gonna die.

: Kayaks are a whole 'nuther animal and I really don't see any strong
: correlation here. Besides are we talking about warning labels or user's
: manuals? Are you suggesting that manufacturers should put all of the
: details from their user's manuals on their kayaks?

Not at all. The warning labels are small and have much less info. I sent you samples from the ATV's, mountaineering companies, and some for kayaks.

: 4) The actual warning text on Petzl products is relatively small compared to
: the usage diagrams and it's rather unobtrusive.

That helps make them more effective as it is a problem to get people to pay attention to them.

: 5) On some of their products, such as carabiners, the attached information is
: a case of serious overkill. Personally, I'd rather they saved the cost the
: literature and dropped the price of their biners by a buck.

I peeled off over almost dozen of them today from 11 bent-gate biners I got on an internet sale. I didn't read all of them... but I read some of them and that's all that matters.

: 6) Other well respected companies, such as Black Diamond and Omega Pacic have
: only small warning labels on their gear with similar text to the Petzl
: warning. Does this make them irresponsible? I think not.

Not at all... I think they are all very responsible. In fact, all these mountaineeering manufacturers force their retailers to transmit their own product warnings. They take this thing seriously. That's why I use them as a running example. They deal in an inherently dangerous sport... they don't hide the danger or minimize it. Instead they concentrate on making sure that the user understands and thereby assumes the responsibility of properly using the equipment and techniques associated with specific equipment... like properly using a GriGri belay device.

: No need, as I have their literature handy. If all you want is a small warning
: label, we have nothing to debate. I still doubt that there is any
: significant value to such a label beyond legal protection for the
: manufacturer, but I don't object to it and never have. As I asked above,
: define your standards precisely and we'll take it from there.

Fine... this agreement by you is a start.

: If you want to contact Petzl or anyone else about this, be my guest. They'll
: probably just send you a carefully scripted reply that's been reviewed by
: their legal and marketing departments. It'll state how they are a
: responsible, caring company and that their products meet the quality and
: safety standard established for the industry (both of which are probably
: true). They'd be foolish to engage in our debate publicly and they
: probably have better things to do, anyway.

They might not... who knows. I never assume what others will do. I just run the test and see what happens. In any case, we are done. Game is over. You shot well... I like to think that I made some nice shots too. In any case... we have agreed to disagree on some stuff and agreed to agree on others.

Now I can enjoy the holiday and go paddling. I hope you also enjoy yours... and make sure you don't breathe any water or we might not be able to do this again!

Safe Paddling!
Brianne

Messages In This Thread

pfd doubts
Petewp -- Tuesday, 14 May 2002, at 9:03 p.m.

Re: pfd doubts
DLonborg -- Tuesday, 14 May 2002, at 9:42 p.m.

Re: pfd doubts
Charles Cooper -- Tuesday, 14 May 2002, at 10:46 p.m.

Re: pfd doubts
Ted Henry -- Wednesday, 15 May 2002, at 10:50 a.m.

Re: pfd doubts
DLonborg -- Wednesday, 15 May 2002, at 1:34 p.m.

Re: pfd doubts
Ted Henry -- Wednesday, 15 May 2002, at 3:42 p.m.

Re: I sink without a PFD.
Shawn Baker -- Wednesday, 15 May 2002, at 7:21 p.m.

Re: I sink without a PFD.
Alex M -- Thursday, 16 May 2002, at 4:25 a.m.

Re: Bow flip/drain
Shawn Baker -- Thursday, 16 May 2002, at 12:03 p.m.

Re: Bow flip/drain w/ Paddle Float
Jed -- Thursday, 16 May 2002, at 7:49 p.m.

Re: I sink without a PFD.
Kurt Hoffman -- Thursday, 16 May 2002, at 7:48 p.m.

Re: I sink without a PFD.
Grant G -- Friday, 17 May 2002, at 5:15 a.m.

Re: I sink without a PFD.
Craig Beverly -- Wednesday, 22 May 2002, at 1:20 a.m.

Re: pfd doubts
LeeG -- Wednesday, 15 May 2002, at 12:01 a.m.

Re: pfd doubts
Petewp -- Thursday, 16 May 2002, at 10:46 p.m.

Re: pfd doubts
LeeG -- Thursday, 16 May 2002, at 11:12 p.m.

Re: pfd doubts
Reg -- Friday, 17 May 2002, at 1:37 a.m.

Re: kapok
LeeG -- Friday, 17 May 2002, at 7:42 a.m.

Re: kapok
Topher -- Friday, 17 May 2002, at 9:27 a.m.

Re: kapok
Craig Mackinnon -- Friday, 17 May 2002, at 9:54 a.m.

Re: pfd doubts
Nick Schade - Guillemot Kayaks -- Friday, 17 May 2002, at 9:30 a.m.

Re: pfd doubts
Topher -- Friday, 17 May 2002, at 4:56 p.m.

Re: That's some pretty fancy circular reasoning
Shawn Baker -- Friday, 17 May 2002, at 5:40 p.m.

Re: pfd doubts
Craig Mackinnon -- Friday, 17 May 2002, at 6:15 p.m.

Re: pfd doubts
Nick Schade - Guillemot Kayaks -- Friday, 17 May 2002, at 8:12 p.m.

Re: pfd doubts
LeeG -- Friday, 17 May 2002, at 11:14 p.m.

A dare for Lee
Grant G -- Saturday, 18 May 2002, at 4:27 a.m.

Re: A dare for Lee
LeeG -- Saturday, 18 May 2002, at 9:36 a.m.

It helps the Coast Guard........
Bruce S. -- Wednesday, 15 May 2002, at 12:05 a.m.

Re: It helps the Coast Guard........
Bob Kelim -- Sunday, 19 May 2002, at 8:48 p.m.

Re: pfd doubts
David -- Wednesday, 15 May 2002, at 2:08 a.m.

Re: pfd doubts
Dan St. Gean -- Wednesday, 15 May 2002, at 9:01 a.m.

Re: pfd doubts
LeeG -- Wednesday, 15 May 2002, at 5:52 p.m.

Re: pfd doubts
Dan St. Gean -- Thursday, 16 May 2002, at 11:50 a.m.

Re: topic
LeeG -- Thursday, 16 May 2002, at 11:59 a.m.

Re: topic
Dan St. Gean -- Thursday, 16 May 2002, at 1:14 p.m.

Re: pfd doubts
Nick Schade - Guillemot Kayaks -- Wednesday, 15 May 2002, at 9:06 a.m.

Listen to Nick
David -- Wednesday, 15 May 2002, at 9:35 a.m.

Face Up
don flowers -- Wednesday, 15 May 2002, at 10:43 a.m.

eye opening
mike allen ---> -- Wednesday, 15 May 2002, at 4:40 p.m.

Re: pfd doubts
sing -- Wednesday, 15 May 2002, at 10:46 a.m.

Her Demand
Brianne Corbett -- Wednesday, 15 May 2002, at 4:06 p.m.

Re: Her Demand
Topher -- Thursday, 16 May 2002, at 10:38 a.m.

Re: Asking questions...
Shawn Baker -- Thursday, 16 May 2002, at 12:00 p.m.

Fashion statements...
Craig Mackinnon -- Thursday, 16 May 2002, at 2:23 p.m.

Re: head injuries
LeeG -- Thursday, 16 May 2002, at 12:02 p.m.

Re: Her Demand
Brianne Corbett -- Sunday, 19 May 2002, at 12:08 a.m.

Error correction.
Brianne Corbett -- Sunday, 19 May 2002, at 12:13 a.m.

Re: pfd doubts
gene -- Wednesday, 15 May 2002, at 4:06 p.m.

Re: pfd doubts
Nick Schade - Guillemot Kayaks -- Wednesday, 15 May 2002, at 6:21 p.m.

Re: pfd doubts
gene -- Wednesday, 15 May 2002, at 6:39 p.m.

sometimes pfd
mike allen ---> -- Wednesday, 15 May 2002, at 4:28 p.m.

Re: I'm a role model, even for goobers.
Shawn Baker -- Wednesday, 15 May 2002, at 7:18 p.m.

Re: pfd doubts
Andy Miller -- Thursday, 16 May 2002, at 11:02 a.m.

Unequal Blubber
Eric -- Friday, 17 May 2002, at 5:57 a.m.

Re: Unequal Blubber
David -- Sunday, 19 May 2002, at 7:04 a.m.

Re: Unequal Blubber
Brianne Corbett -- Sunday, 19 May 2002, at 8:23 p.m.

Re: Unequal Blubber
David -- Monday, 20 May 2002, at 11:16 a.m.

Re: Unequal Blubber
Brianne Corbett -- Monday, 20 May 2002, at 5:12 p.m.

Re: Unequal Blubber
David -- Monday, 20 May 2002, at 10:49 p.m.

Re: Unequal Blubber
David -- Monday, 20 May 2002, at 10:50 p.m.

This response is not about kayaking... sorry all.
Brianne Corbett -- Tuesday, 21 May 2002, at 6:33 p.m.

Re: This response is not about kayaking... sorry a
Pete S -- Wednesday, 22 May 2002, at 9:41 a.m.

Re: This response is not about kayaking... sorry a
Carnivore -- Wednesday, 22 May 2002, at 10:34 p.m.

Re: This response is not about kayaking... sorry a
David -- Wednesday, 22 May 2002, at 9:47 a.m.

Gee Bree, did David strike a nerve?
Brian Nystrom -- Wednesday, 22 May 2002, at 12:20 p.m.

Re: Gee Bree, did David strike a nerve?
David -- Wednesday, 22 May 2002, at 4:28 p.m.

Re: Gee Bree, did David strike a nerve?
Brianne Corbett -- Thursday, 23 May 2002, at 7:31 p.m.

Forget David... Let's play some pool.
Brianne Corbett -- Thursday, 23 May 2002, at 7:28 p.m.

Re: Human Nature
Robert -- Friday, 24 May 2002, at 12:23 p.m.

Re: Forget David... Let's play some pool.
Brian Nystrom -- Friday, 24 May 2002, at 1:07 p.m.

Re: Forget David... Let's play some pool.
Brianne Corbett -- Saturday, 25 May 2002, at 1:03 a.m.

Re: Forget David... Let's play some pool.
Brian Nystrom -- Saturday, 25 May 2002, at 10:07 a.m.

Re: Forget David... Let's play some pool.
Nick Schade - Guillemot Kayaks -- Friday, 24 May 2002, at 2:47 p.m.

Re: Forget David... Let's play some pool.
Brianne Corbett -- Saturday, 25 May 2002, at 1:19 a.m.

Re: Forget David... Let's play some pool.
Brian Nystrom -- Saturday, 25 May 2002, at 10:37 a.m.

Re: Forget David... Let's play some pool.
Brianne Corbett -- Tuesday, 28 May 2002, at 9:15 p.m.

Re: Forget David... Let's play some pool.
Nick Schade - Guillemot Kayaks -- Tuesday, 28 May 2002, at 10:24 a.m.

Re: Forget David... Let's play some pool.
Brianne Corbett -- Tuesday, 28 May 2002, at 9:06 p.m.

Re: safety warnings
Nick Schade - Guillemot Kayaks -- Wednesday, 29 May 2002, at 9:48 a.m.

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