Sea Kayaks Techniques Bulletin Board

Re: Not necessarily...

Posted By: Brian Nystrom
Date: Friday, 24 May 2002, at 5:02 p.m.

In Response To: Not necessarily... (Craig Mackinnon)

: Mine doesn't. I didn't know there was a monolithic Greenland paddling style,
: either.

I'm talking about Greenland style as it is practiced in Greenland. Greg Stamer has explained this to me in depth. In a low volume boat with a correctly positioned masik, or a similarly padded larger boat, there is no need to push with the feet. In his discussions with Maligiaq Padilla, he asked about pushing on the foot brace while paddling. M.P. replied that he doesn't push with near-side foot, he pulls with the opposite knee. Greg confirmed this with other Greenlanders. That doesn't mean that you or I have to do it this way, but that's the way they do it.

The reason that this came up was that I was complaining about getting a sore back (sacral area) and sore feet in my skin boat. Greg explained that if you paddle this way, there is very little pressure on the backrest or the foot rest. I tried it and he's right. In fact, I don't even have to use the backrest if I don't want to.

While on vacation recently, I rented a Looksha IV. We left the dock and after a few minutes, I noticed something felt a bit funny, then realized that I didn't have my feet on the pegs. Apparently, I use them even less than I thought! Most of the time, my legs are relaxed, resting on the hull and I control the boat with hip pressure. When I want to paddle hard, I pull up with the opposite leg, rather than pushing on the near-side foot peg.

: Many people thought and still think that "properly practiced"
: Greenland style paddling is limited to low angle paddling. I nearly always
: use a high angle aggressive and very powerful stroke, which many people
: probably consider "improper".

It's not necessarily related to stoke style, though pulling up with the opposite knee works better with a high angle stroke that incorporates a strong abdominal crunch as it gets the abs and hip flexors involved and encourages torso rotation during the crunch. Try it and you'll see what I mean.

: That reads like using the legs to me. And the more powerful the stroke the
: more powerful the "pull up" with the thighs.

If you consider the hip flexors to be leg muscles, you're right. The quads and hamstrings are involved only minimally, since the flexing is at the hip, not the knee.

: What's normal? Normal for you may be typical for most folks, but not for me.

OK, if you want to be a stickler for semantics, fine. What I meant was typical relaxed paddling at a touring pace, as opposed to sprinting, working hard against the wind, etc.

: Not everyone paddles Greenland style with the lower body in this
: configuration. At least I don't. My driving force is transferred through
: the seat, thigh braces, foot pegs, etc.

There's more to the technique than simply using a Greenland paddle. However, I'm not suggesting that you're doing anything wrong, just that they do it differently in Greenland. I really don't understand why you're getting so defensive about this.

: But the push and pressing at contact points to maintain body position will
: increase as the power behind the stroke increases. Also, a
: "push" may be required to help maintain a course in powerful
: current, waves and among other external forces acting against the kayak.
: Again, the greater these forces, the more powerful the push.

Please explain to me how pushing against a foot peg that cannot move is more powerful. All it does is drive you into the back band harder. Yes, you're working harder, but that work is wasted. You only need to push hard enough to maintain your body position against the force of paddling. Flexing the foot peg, back band and hull does not contribute to the boat moving forward. Sure, you may have to push harder at times to counteract the combined forces of waves and paddling, but using any more energy than is absolutely necessary is wasteful.

: That's the point--you're transferring the force to the boat and attempting to
: minimize energy loss and absorption by the body.

If your body is anchored in the boat, any extra force exerted is wasted. You can push until you bend or break the foot pegs and the boat will not go any faster.

: My legs have worked hard. I hammer the Greenland paddle and use nearly my
: entire body doing so. But my goal isn't to paddle "properly",
: just powerfully, fast and with great intensity. And I don't necessarily
: have to adopt someone else's technique to do so. Hasn't the issue of
: "dogma" already been raised?

You're taking this all WAY too seriously. I'm not advocating any dogmatic approach. Do whatever you like; it doesn't matter to me how you paddle. I'm not saying what you're doing is wrong. I'm simply explaining the way Greenlanders paddle. They don't use a strong leg push component in their stroke, they use an opposite knee lift instead. If I haven't explained this to your satisfaction, post a question on the Greenland board and ask Greg to explain it to you.

Do they ALL paddle this way? Who knows? From the video footage I've seen, there is substantial variation in style among them, but apparently, this is the way they are taught to paddle. But don't take my word for it, ask Greg. He's the expert, not me.

Messages In This Thread

Forward Stroke Revisited
David -- Wednesday, 22 May 2002, at 9:45 a.m.

Forward Stroke Link:
Craig Mackinnon -- Wednesday, 22 May 2002, at 11:15 a.m.

why you hide behind an authority? *NM*
risto -- Wednesday, 22 May 2002, at 1:16 p.m.

Re: why you hide behind an authority?
Shawn Baker -- Wednesday, 22 May 2002, at 1:20 p.m.

Re: teachers
LeeG -- Wednesday, 22 May 2002, at 5:53 p.m.

re-inventing the wheel is fun....
risto -- Friday, 24 May 2002, at 12:20 p.m.

Re: re-inventing the wheel is fun....
don flowers -- Friday, 24 May 2002, at 1:05 p.m.

Re: Forward Stroke Link:
Ted Henry -- Wednesday, 22 May 2002, at 3:59 p.m.

Re: Forward Stroke Link:
don flowers -- Wednesday, 22 May 2002, at 6:40 p.m.

Re: Forward Stroke Link:
KenB -- Wednesday, 22 May 2002, at 7:13 p.m.

Thanks for the link *NM*
don flowers -- Wednesday, 22 May 2002, at 8:52 p.m.

Re: Forward Stroke Revisited
Shawn Baker -- Wednesday, 22 May 2002, at 1:19 p.m.

Re: Forward Stroke Revisited
Randy Knauff -- Wednesday, 22 May 2002, at 3:18 p.m.

Re: Forward Stroke Revisited
Nick Schade - Guillemot Kayaks -- Wednesday, 22 May 2002, at 5:14 p.m.

Re: Forward Stroke Revisited
LeeG -- Wednesday, 22 May 2002, at 6:03 p.m.

Re: Forward Stroke Pedal=Paddle
dave mcadoo -- Wednesday, 22 May 2002, at 6:18 p.m.

Re: Forward Stroke Revisited
njkayaker -- Wednesday, 22 May 2002, at 7:01 p.m.

Re: Forward Stroke Revisited
David -- Wednesday, 22 May 2002, at 10:50 p.m.

Dogma and Gurus
M.Hamilton -- Thursday, 23 May 2002, at 2:10 a.m.

Re: Dogma and Gurus
David -- Thursday, 23 May 2002, at 10:23 a.m.

Re: Dogma and Gurus
David -- Thursday, 23 May 2002, at 10:34 a.m.

Re: Dogma and Gurus
Shawn Baker -- Thursday, 23 May 2002, at 11:30 a.m.

Re: Dogma and Gurus
LeeG -- Thursday, 23 May 2002, at 12:16 p.m.

Paddling "styles"
Craig Mackinnon -- Thursday, 23 May 2002, at 12:20 p.m.

15 heads are better than one....
David -- Thursday, 23 May 2002, at 11:56 p.m.

Re: correction
LeeG -- Friday, 24 May 2002, at 10:23 a.m.

Re: correction
David -- Friday, 24 May 2002, at 6:15 p.m.

Re: correction
Jed -- Friday, 24 May 2002, at 9:31 p.m.

Re: Dogma and Gurus
Brianne Corbett -- Thursday, 23 May 2002, at 8:44 p.m.

"Curls for the girls"
Craig Mackinnon -- Friday, 24 May 2002, at 9:44 a.m.

Not necessarily
Brian Nystrom -- Friday, 24 May 2002, at 1:24 p.m.

Not necessarily...
Craig Mackinnon -- Friday, 24 May 2002, at 3:38 p.m.

Re: Not necessarily...
Brian Nystrom -- Friday, 24 May 2002, at 5:02 p.m.

Re: Not necessarily...
Greg Stamer -- Friday, 24 May 2002, at 6:49 p.m.

Thanks for clearing that up, Greg.
Brian Nystrom -- Saturday, 25 May 2002, at 9:21 a.m.

Re: Thanks for clearing that up, Greg.
Greg Stamer -- Tuesday, 28 May 2002, at 12:12 p.m.

Re: Thanks for clearing that up, Greg.
Brian Nystrom -- Tuesday, 28 May 2002, at 12:28 p.m.

Dogma Rulz, Catma Drools
Jed -- Thursday, 23 May 2002, at 12:32 p.m.

A good demo of torso rotation benefits
Pamela -- Thursday, 23 May 2002, at 7:36 p.m.

Maybe not dogma but it seems to help
Jed -- Thursday, 23 May 2002, at 8:08 p.m.

Re: A good demo of torso rotation benefits
David -- Friday, 24 May 2002, at 12:00 a.m.

Over rotation
M.Hamilton -- Friday, 24 May 2002, at 12:39 a.m.

Not MH above,but a prank based on a conversation *NM*
MH -- Saturday, 25 May 2002, at 5:34 p.m.

Interestingly, no one used the word "cadence" *NM*
risto -- Thursday, 23 May 2002, at 1:40 p.m.

Re: or breathing *NM*
LeeG -- Thursday, 23 May 2002, at 10:14 p.m.

or,... synchronizing the lot... *NM*
risto -- Saturday, 25 May 2002, at 8:45 a.m.

Sea Kayaks Techniques Bulletin Board is maintained by Nick Schade - Guillemot Kayaks with WebBBS 5.12.