Sea Kayaks Techniques Bulletin Board

Dogma Rulz, Catma Drools

Posted By: Jed
Date: Thursday, 23 May 2002, at 12:32 p.m.

In Response To: Dogma and Gurus (M.Hamilton)

: It just amazes me the garbage I hear about so called experts. Lets see, I
: won't bend my arms at all, and I'll over rotate my torso on every stroke
: so I have to rotate it all the way back for the next stroke..... These are
: bad paddlers people. Guys like Duff will never say these absolutist and
: stupid things that can only be some freaks mis-interpretation of a
: training drill. Just nonsense. Watch vids of Greg Barton etc., and listen
: to these folk. If you can paddle day after day 20-50 knot days and feel
: good, guess what? Your stroke is good! Of course the arm bends during a
: forward stroke! I hope so!!!! The worst paddler I ever saw regarding
: forward stroke was a so called ACA expert. Unbelievable. What amazes me
: even more is the fact that people buy this garbage?

Easy there big guy, don't start trashing the dogmatists till you've walked a mile their way. ;-)
I agree, as you know, that absolutists only see part of the problem. I can say this as a former absolutist. In large part you, Murray, have helped be grow past that closed-system type of thought.

But now I find myself teaching forward stroke to beginners through intermediates and I don't see the problem with teaching torso rotation and limited arm-use. I do not teach straight-arm-all-the-time paddling. I do teach minimal arm flexation which leads directly to maximum torso rotation. In my experience it is not possible to over-rotate such that one would need to rotate back for the catch. I also teach that the purpose of torso rotation is to move the catch further forward, not to move the paddle back. But these concepts are designed to teach sea kayakers not racers, so if the information is only true in a narrow application, I can live with that.

It was after watching Greg Barton that I started to develop a stroke that someone later called a racing stroke. I saw that Greg's hands went not towards the bow (as I was taught) but across the foredeck. Crossing the centerline of the boat! Pure heresey! But I gave it a try, it felt good and now it's a part of my normal stroke. And though I haven't paddled 30+ miles in a day, I can tell you that after a hard 26 nm day last year my whole body felt great! And during the 16 nm trip the following morning, I still felt great.

My arms go from straight (during the catch) to bent to about 120 degrees as the paddle exits the water. My elbows never pass the middle of my torso. I strive to maintain the "paddlers box" all the time. I paddle feather or unfeathered depending on my mood and have never experienced wrist problems. In my short career I've tried to break every rule that I was taught, only to grow to believe the the dogma was more right than wrong. And for the non-expert paddler, the adoption of forward stroke dogma saves a lot of time. No it's not the whole story, but it is a significant part of the story.

I'm confused, do you feel that torso rotation is a bad thing or that telling a novice to keep their arms straight (in order to get them to use torso rotation) is wrong? Chris Duff is a great long distance paddler but that doesn't make him a great teacher or a great model for the forward stroke. I'd love to see his stroke and understand how he does what he does but in the meanwhile I'll have to make do whith the information that is available. Absolutists are rarely completely right, but sometimes they are right enough for the task at hand.

Respectfully,
Jed Luby

Messages In This Thread

Forward Stroke Revisited
David -- Wednesday, 22 May 2002, at 9:45 a.m.

Forward Stroke Link:
Craig Mackinnon -- Wednesday, 22 May 2002, at 11:15 a.m.

why you hide behind an authority? *NM*
risto -- Wednesday, 22 May 2002, at 1:16 p.m.

Re: why you hide behind an authority?
Shawn Baker -- Wednesday, 22 May 2002, at 1:20 p.m.

Re: teachers
LeeG -- Wednesday, 22 May 2002, at 5:53 p.m.

re-inventing the wheel is fun....
risto -- Friday, 24 May 2002, at 12:20 p.m.

Re: re-inventing the wheel is fun....
don flowers -- Friday, 24 May 2002, at 1:05 p.m.

Re: Forward Stroke Link:
Ted Henry -- Wednesday, 22 May 2002, at 3:59 p.m.

Re: Forward Stroke Link:
don flowers -- Wednesday, 22 May 2002, at 6:40 p.m.

Re: Forward Stroke Link:
KenB -- Wednesday, 22 May 2002, at 7:13 p.m.

Thanks for the link *NM*
don flowers -- Wednesday, 22 May 2002, at 8:52 p.m.

Re: Forward Stroke Revisited
Shawn Baker -- Wednesday, 22 May 2002, at 1:19 p.m.

Re: Forward Stroke Revisited
Randy Knauff -- Wednesday, 22 May 2002, at 3:18 p.m.

Re: Forward Stroke Revisited
Nick Schade - Guillemot Kayaks -- Wednesday, 22 May 2002, at 5:14 p.m.

Re: Forward Stroke Revisited
LeeG -- Wednesday, 22 May 2002, at 6:03 p.m.

Re: Forward Stroke Pedal=Paddle
dave mcadoo -- Wednesday, 22 May 2002, at 6:18 p.m.

Re: Forward Stroke Revisited
njkayaker -- Wednesday, 22 May 2002, at 7:01 p.m.

Re: Forward Stroke Revisited
David -- Wednesday, 22 May 2002, at 10:50 p.m.

Dogma and Gurus
M.Hamilton -- Thursday, 23 May 2002, at 2:10 a.m.

Re: Dogma and Gurus
David -- Thursday, 23 May 2002, at 10:23 a.m.

Re: Dogma and Gurus
David -- Thursday, 23 May 2002, at 10:34 a.m.

Re: Dogma and Gurus
Shawn Baker -- Thursday, 23 May 2002, at 11:30 a.m.

Re: Dogma and Gurus
LeeG -- Thursday, 23 May 2002, at 12:16 p.m.

Paddling "styles"
Craig Mackinnon -- Thursday, 23 May 2002, at 12:20 p.m.

15 heads are better than one....
David -- Thursday, 23 May 2002, at 11:56 p.m.

Re: correction
LeeG -- Friday, 24 May 2002, at 10:23 a.m.

Re: correction
David -- Friday, 24 May 2002, at 6:15 p.m.

Re: correction
Jed -- Friday, 24 May 2002, at 9:31 p.m.

Re: Dogma and Gurus
Brianne Corbett -- Thursday, 23 May 2002, at 8:44 p.m.

"Curls for the girls"
Craig Mackinnon -- Friday, 24 May 2002, at 9:44 a.m.

Not necessarily
Brian Nystrom -- Friday, 24 May 2002, at 1:24 p.m.

Not necessarily...
Craig Mackinnon -- Friday, 24 May 2002, at 3:38 p.m.

Re: Not necessarily...
Brian Nystrom -- Friday, 24 May 2002, at 5:02 p.m.

Re: Not necessarily...
Greg Stamer -- Friday, 24 May 2002, at 6:49 p.m.

Thanks for clearing that up, Greg.
Brian Nystrom -- Saturday, 25 May 2002, at 9:21 a.m.

Re: Thanks for clearing that up, Greg.
Greg Stamer -- Tuesday, 28 May 2002, at 12:12 p.m.

Re: Thanks for clearing that up, Greg.
Brian Nystrom -- Tuesday, 28 May 2002, at 12:28 p.m.

Dogma Rulz, Catma Drools
Jed -- Thursday, 23 May 2002, at 12:32 p.m.

A good demo of torso rotation benefits
Pamela -- Thursday, 23 May 2002, at 7:36 p.m.

Maybe not dogma but it seems to help
Jed -- Thursday, 23 May 2002, at 8:08 p.m.

Re: A good demo of torso rotation benefits
David -- Friday, 24 May 2002, at 12:00 a.m.

Over rotation
M.Hamilton -- Friday, 24 May 2002, at 12:39 a.m.

Not MH above,but a prank based on a conversation *NM*
MH -- Saturday, 25 May 2002, at 5:34 p.m.

Interestingly, no one used the word "cadence" *NM*
risto -- Thursday, 23 May 2002, at 1:40 p.m.

Re: or breathing *NM*
LeeG -- Thursday, 23 May 2002, at 10:14 p.m.

or,... synchronizing the lot... *NM*
risto -- Saturday, 25 May 2002, at 8:45 a.m.

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