Sea Kayaks Techniques Bulletin Board

Re: Dogma and Gurus

Posted By: David
Date: Thursday, 23 May 2002, at 10:34 a.m.

In Response To: Re: Dogma and Gurus (David)

Another thought: I haven't sat down and kinesiologically analyzed it, but is it really valid at all to say that the twisting muscles of the abdomen (obliques) are stronger than the triceps and lats combined, which is push-pull? I would put triceps up against anyone's abs for pure contractile force during muscle twitch. The lats are fully engaged during the last 1/3 of the stroke on the pushing side, at least they should be to stablize the arm. It takes strain off the elbow, so torso rotation is probably no stronger or more efficeint than push pull, but it transfers the stress to the abs and also uses a winding and unwinding of torso to store and then release energy. But the momentum from push pull would do that too. The more I think about it, it seems that torso rotation is pretty well dependent on the "little obliques" across the abdomen. I have dissected alot of cadavers (anatomy teacher), and they really ain't that impressive in size. So our power has nothing to do with the torso, its engagement of the abs which we are after. I suppose a good paddler uses abs, triceps and lats, dividing the labor between all 3 groups. I think some feedback might help me sort this through. The point is that we have to adapt techniques to the learner, but there are standards, and finding the key components might makes us better teachers.

Interesting comment, over the years, different trends come and go. I was
: taught initially to concentrate on torso rotation, but focus on pushing
: forward with the leading hand to bring the torso around (similar to
: crossing over the center line of the boat). M. (is it Mark?), that heavy
: duty rotation of the torso is energy expensive, I agree, real hard to do
: over the long haul. There is one concept from karate which is useful
: maybe; the beginner learns to punch from the hip, not the arms, by
: exaggerating the hip rotation. At about brown belt level, this changes to
: counter-rotation, a kind of figure 8 movement of the hips; after black
: belt, the focus is on subtle movement of the hips, more on the intention
: of movement (if that makes sense in Western language). So the karate
: master looks like they are doing nothing, but they hit really hard with
: minimum hip rotation. I think we might see this kind of thing in paddling.
: You can drive the paddle from the hips, the body center, without a
: pronounced torso rotation, obtaining power from forward foot pressure on
: the peg, and maybe this is what expert kayakers learn to do. When I watch
: Inuit footage, they seem to just be sitting in the yak paddling
: nonchalently, from ice flow to ice flow. Interesting response, thanks M.

Messages In This Thread

Forward Stroke Revisited
David -- Wednesday, 22 May 2002, at 9:45 a.m.

Forward Stroke Link:
Craig Mackinnon -- Wednesday, 22 May 2002, at 11:15 a.m.

why you hide behind an authority? *NM*
risto -- Wednesday, 22 May 2002, at 1:16 p.m.

Re: why you hide behind an authority?
Shawn Baker -- Wednesday, 22 May 2002, at 1:20 p.m.

Re: teachers
LeeG -- Wednesday, 22 May 2002, at 5:53 p.m.

re-inventing the wheel is fun....
risto -- Friday, 24 May 2002, at 12:20 p.m.

Re: re-inventing the wheel is fun....
don flowers -- Friday, 24 May 2002, at 1:05 p.m.

Re: Forward Stroke Link:
Ted Henry -- Wednesday, 22 May 2002, at 3:59 p.m.

Re: Forward Stroke Link:
don flowers -- Wednesday, 22 May 2002, at 6:40 p.m.

Re: Forward Stroke Link:
KenB -- Wednesday, 22 May 2002, at 7:13 p.m.

Thanks for the link *NM*
don flowers -- Wednesday, 22 May 2002, at 8:52 p.m.

Re: Forward Stroke Revisited
Shawn Baker -- Wednesday, 22 May 2002, at 1:19 p.m.

Re: Forward Stroke Revisited
Randy Knauff -- Wednesday, 22 May 2002, at 3:18 p.m.

Re: Forward Stroke Revisited
Nick Schade - Guillemot Kayaks -- Wednesday, 22 May 2002, at 5:14 p.m.

Re: Forward Stroke Revisited
LeeG -- Wednesday, 22 May 2002, at 6:03 p.m.

Re: Forward Stroke Pedal=Paddle
dave mcadoo -- Wednesday, 22 May 2002, at 6:18 p.m.

Re: Forward Stroke Revisited
njkayaker -- Wednesday, 22 May 2002, at 7:01 p.m.

Re: Forward Stroke Revisited
David -- Wednesday, 22 May 2002, at 10:50 p.m.

Dogma and Gurus
M.Hamilton -- Thursday, 23 May 2002, at 2:10 a.m.

Re: Dogma and Gurus
David -- Thursday, 23 May 2002, at 10:23 a.m.

Re: Dogma and Gurus
David -- Thursday, 23 May 2002, at 10:34 a.m.

Re: Dogma and Gurus
Shawn Baker -- Thursday, 23 May 2002, at 11:30 a.m.

Re: Dogma and Gurus
LeeG -- Thursday, 23 May 2002, at 12:16 p.m.

Paddling "styles"
Craig Mackinnon -- Thursday, 23 May 2002, at 12:20 p.m.

15 heads are better than one....
David -- Thursday, 23 May 2002, at 11:56 p.m.

Re: correction
LeeG -- Friday, 24 May 2002, at 10:23 a.m.

Re: correction
David -- Friday, 24 May 2002, at 6:15 p.m.

Re: correction
Jed -- Friday, 24 May 2002, at 9:31 p.m.

Re: Dogma and Gurus
Brianne Corbett -- Thursday, 23 May 2002, at 8:44 p.m.

"Curls for the girls"
Craig Mackinnon -- Friday, 24 May 2002, at 9:44 a.m.

Not necessarily
Brian Nystrom -- Friday, 24 May 2002, at 1:24 p.m.

Not necessarily...
Craig Mackinnon -- Friday, 24 May 2002, at 3:38 p.m.

Re: Not necessarily...
Brian Nystrom -- Friday, 24 May 2002, at 5:02 p.m.

Re: Not necessarily...
Greg Stamer -- Friday, 24 May 2002, at 6:49 p.m.

Thanks for clearing that up, Greg.
Brian Nystrom -- Saturday, 25 May 2002, at 9:21 a.m.

Re: Thanks for clearing that up, Greg.
Greg Stamer -- Tuesday, 28 May 2002, at 12:12 p.m.

Re: Thanks for clearing that up, Greg.
Brian Nystrom -- Tuesday, 28 May 2002, at 12:28 p.m.

Dogma Rulz, Catma Drools
Jed -- Thursday, 23 May 2002, at 12:32 p.m.

A good demo of torso rotation benefits
Pamela -- Thursday, 23 May 2002, at 7:36 p.m.

Maybe not dogma but it seems to help
Jed -- Thursday, 23 May 2002, at 8:08 p.m.

Re: A good demo of torso rotation benefits
David -- Friday, 24 May 2002, at 12:00 a.m.

Over rotation
M.Hamilton -- Friday, 24 May 2002, at 12:39 a.m.

Not MH above,but a prank based on a conversation *NM*
MH -- Saturday, 25 May 2002, at 5:34 p.m.

Interestingly, no one used the word "cadence" *NM*
risto -- Thursday, 23 May 2002, at 1:40 p.m.

Re: or breathing *NM*
LeeG -- Thursday, 23 May 2002, at 10:14 p.m.

or,... synchronizing the lot... *NM*
risto -- Saturday, 25 May 2002, at 8:45 a.m.

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