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Being at the Center of a Black Hole
In Response To: I am listening, are you? ()

: I listened, but his reasons aren't very compelling and neither are yours. I
: have used them for years, they deploy in about a minute, 2 at tops. Ever
: try the paddle float in wind opposing current? Please do so at your
: earliest conveniance, you will see what I mean.

You asked for reasons asserting that there were none. I gave you several. You may feel them uncompelling based upon your experience and boat rigging, but that is not evidence that they lack validity. It seems to me that you don't want to admit anything other than that sponsons are THE way. You want to be the point person for sponson superiority. You have put yourself on a pedestal... don't be surprised if people try to knock you off.

Let's look at your responses. Your time to deploy of one to 2 minutes by your own admission may be quite significant compared to 5 seconds to roll the boat or 20-30 seconds to do a re-entry and roll. Stick your hand into 35 degree water for 2 minutes and let me know what happens.

: And Dan going on about how
: the T rescue is just fine for a loaded kayak, BS!! What planet has he been
: doing his rescues on? Or Dan, are you one of those strong guys who can
: hoist a 250 lb boat, filled with water onto his cockpit coaming with nary
: a wince? Yeah, tell me about it. Dan, I pull off over 30 T's a summer and
: read all the incident reports, for an unloaded yak they are great, but
: loaded....you obviously haven't tried it so I won't bother trying to
: explain it.

You are responding to me and not Dan. I didn't comment on anything he said so please focus on what I said. Let's be fair OK?

And just for the sake of clarity... I own and have tested sponsons on a fully loaded kayak on a number of occasions as well as training with traditional techniques while fully loaded. I usually kayak fully loaded so I try to train in the conditions I will likely experience. Don't make assumptions about my level of experience. Ask and I will tell you but don't talk as if you know something about what I have or have not done. You don't.

: And the argument about stability is just that, an argument, an exercise in
: theory. I have deployed and used them in 2 meter swells and had no
: problems.

You respond with a straw man argument. I didn't talk about swells. I talked about steep wind waves. There is no theory about it. Indeed, you specifically mention "wind opposing current" (see first paragraph of this message) . That situation produces STEEP waves... not swells. The fact is, as I said before, that in steep waves, the form of the hull in the water including the sponsons will have less secondary stability compared to the hull without the sponsons.

: And the paddlefloat is a worthless outrigger, all you need to do
: is move a little too much to the other side and whoosh, you are swimming.

I grant your point that the paddlefloat requires attention to maintaining weight favoring the float side of the boat... but that doesn't make it worthless by any means. The proof lies in the fact that many people have actually used the paddlefloat to perform self-rescue under both traing and real conditions. The device has limitations. As the steepness of the waves increases, the paddlefloat becomes more difficult to use effectively. As the power of the wind increases, the paddlefloat becomes more difficult to use. But exactly the same thing is true of sponsons.

: Gusts of wind have no effect on deployed sponsons, they will not make the
: boat blow away, as you suggest.

Nonsense. You didn't read what I said. If the boat is overturned... bottom side up... you MUST flip it in order to re-enter (since you are doing a re-entry and roll). This is more difficult to do with attached sponsons and in a strong wind the sponsons add additional surface area for the wind to catch and possibly pull the boat out of your hands. There is no doubt that this is correct. You obviously weren't responding to what I said otherwise you would not have disagreed.

: And this long winded discussion of
: stability, totally incorrect. The addition of water in the craft,
: functioning as ballast, stabilizes the craft with the sponsons.

It is the sponsons that are supposed to be stabilizing the boat not ballast. The fact is that swamped kayaks (ballasted in your language) are less stable than empty boats. If the waves are not steep, I believe with you that the sponsons do add greater initial stability. As the wave steepness increases the initial stability loses its value as secondary stability is required. Here I believe that other techniques are better.

: And you want stats from me, but offer none of your own to counter. I don't
: think you've even used them, if you had, you wouldnt' post this kind of
: rhetoric.

This isn't rhetoric, especially since I am not making the claim... you are. I have always asserted that both are valuable tools. You are the one stating that one of the tools is worthless and sponsons are best. So my dear... the burden of proof is on you... not me. All you asked for were for some reasons why one would opt not to use sponsons. Brian gave you some... but you ignored them. that's what my message was all about

: I think you, Brian and Dan should join the "bah, humbug,
: the old ways are the only ways" club. Why can't you admit that the
: paddlefloat MIGHT be an outdated solution and that Tim MIGHT be right?

You can be a very annoying man. If you search the message history, you will see that I have defended the use of sponsons. But I have never denigrated other tools to make sponsons the preferred or the only self-rescue tool. You have done that. And your position is being justly attacked. You have reaped what you have sown.

: As usual, it starts as a discussion, gets personal and goes to hell in a
: handbasket. But that's the risk of introducing controversial topics; but I
: had expected a little more discussion and less controversy.

You started it! You made it an all or nothing affair and forced people to feel like they are idiots because they follow a different path. This is your doing. You find things getting hot and don't like it. You lit the forest on fire. Don't look for sympathy from me.

: But then the
: word sponsons has a way of getting everyone antsy. But Dan, personal
: attacks on my abilities as an instructor and kayaker don't really serve
: any purpose, is there just a small chance we could learn from each other?
: I call this kind of discussion talking through, rather than talking to
: each other.

Sheesh! Get a sense of introspection. Everyone is antsy because you caused it. You personally. You won't accept anything but your position as being correct. Your flexibility is zero. You treat experts as if they are dumb idiots.

I am mystified that you can't see that you are at the center of this black hole. Trust me. I know. I have been at the center of similar black holes.

We all need to step back and ask whether we have pushed too hard or gone too far in the defense of what was dear to us. Have we sucked everything into a Black Hole of our own creation by acting as the singularity?

I have done it and will probably do it again. But since my genuine interest is the advancement of ideas and not merely winning arguments (Of course, I do like to win), I need to constantly introspect and ask whether winning has become more important than learning. You might try it too. That's how to get out of the center of a Black Hole.

Safe Paddling!

Messages In This Thread

Georgian Bay Kayaks - The Sponson War Continues
Re: Georgian Bay Kayaks - The Sponson War Continue
Re: Seasonal ?
But isn't redundancy of rescue devices the issue?
Re: But isn't redundancy of rescue devices the iss
Good point, Nick...but let me rephrase...
I couldn't agree more... *NM*
interesting info???
alternative sponson supplier
Check out the "Paddle Loom Float"...
Re: alternative sponson supplier
Sponsons not a hot item I can see...:)
Re: good golly
Agreed, but what about sponsons themselves.. *NM*
Re: a little one tracked are we? *NM*
Haven't heard one good reason not to yet...
You heard a reason but you didn't listen.
I am listening, are you?
Being at the Center of a Black Hole
Never seen someone do a PF rescue in 20 secs. *NM*
Re: Never seen someone do a PF rescue in 20 secs.
Brianne, I didn't know you cared... *NM*
Re: Never seen someone do a PF rescue in 20 secs.
Setting the record straight
Good points, don't agree with all, but fair enough *NM*
you're right - - -
Thanks Dan, me too, are we cool now?
sure we're cool - - -
Re: Haven't heard one good reason not to yet...
Comparing apples to oranges
Re: Salade de Fruits
Re: Haven't heard one good reason not to yet...
Re: Haven't heard one good reason not to yet...
My reasons for not using them . .
OT: rules for survival...
Clarification . .
"We are all between swims"
Re: My reasons for not using them . .
making sense of gear instead of skill - - -
Re: Good reasons not to, but some good reasons to.
more reasons for:
Funny thing...
Re: Funny thing...
Re: technique and knowledge vs. equipment
Re: Good reasons not to, but some good reasons to.
Re: Good reasons not to, but some good reasons to.
Re: fishing
Yoda speaks, he does
Re: hmgmgmg, confused he is
you're a perfect candidate for sponsons - - -
Re: Who should stay home?
Sponsons bring up some strong emotions... *NM*
Re: Georgian Bay Kayaks - The Sponson War Continue
Sure, but would you give Timmy any of YOUR money?
Re: No, but thats not the question.
Re: No, but thats not the question.
Re: No, but thats not the question.
when melted down - - -
Re: Georgian Bay Kayaks - The Sponson War Continue
Re: The Sponson War Continues
Re: The Sponson War Continues
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