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Re: Epoxy: Did I Get a Bad Batch of MAS?
By:Nick Schade - Guillemot Kayaks
Date: 3/22/2012, 11:09 am
In Response To: Re: Epoxy: Did I Get a Bad Batch of MAS? (Rob Macks/Laughing Loon CC&K)

: I've worked out that issue. By simply wetting the roller cover and
: letting the resin
: have time to absorb into it, the roller cover produces very little
: foam, at least with System Three
: REGULAR resin. Seems like a small point, but it makes all the
: difference.

I guess that is part of my point. We have both worked out complete systems that work together as a whole. Changing one or more small point here or there may have unexpected results.
It is very hard for us, even after years of experience to know what the critical points of the system really are. If you are using Resin A, Hardener A-2, cloth B, wood C, temperature D, humidity E, roller F, brush G, squeegee H, tool pressure I, tool speed J, etc what happens if you change one thing in a small way? Often it doesn't matter, until it does, then you need to change everything.

For example, is warmer better, or is it worse? It may depend on a lot of different factors, some of which we may not even be aware of. What was the temperature for the hours before you started, what will the temps be for the hours after you finish. Does it matter? Probably, but maybe not much.

I am generally reluctant to say "This is the way to do it" , instead I tend to say "This is the way I do it". The distinction is that it may not work quite the same for you. I would love to be able to give people a definitive answer on the Best Way to do things, unfortunately I can't.

For example, for me pouring a big puddle of resin in the bottom of the hull seems to work well because I am then working the resin up through the cloth pushing air out and don't find I have much problem eliminating the excess. But it may be due to something about the resin I use that makes this works, or it could be the temperature I keep the shop. I have quite good control over the temperature of my shop so maybe this technique won't work as well for someone with less control. Unfortunately, I really don't know.

Falling temperatures are generally considered to be good, but what if with falling temperatures you have high humidity and a tendency for dew to fall? Dew on partially cured epoxy may make a "blush-free" epoxy blush like crazy. So, a builder not working in my shop in Connecticut may find they really need air conditioning or a dehumidifier for best results.

As you have found, different "slow" epoxies cure at different rates. The dump-and-spread method is very good for getting the resin spread quickly. For some resins or people working in very high temperatures, this may be critical, but if you don't put enough pressure on the squeegee you end up with too much resin left on the boat. Of course too much pressure you end up starving the cloth. The right pressure will depend on resin viscosity which depends on resin temperature, which depends on air temperature. Any technique takes time to develop a "feel" for how to make it work reliably.

The "EpoxyWorks" article also recommends spraying a fine mist of denatured alcohol to reduce surface tension and release air bubbles. But they make a point of saying a "Fine Mist" and an old Windex bottle won't work. I suspect much may depend on what you consider a fine mist. I think the alcohol may also inhibit the cure a bit, so the extra time may allow more bubbles to rise, however, more time for dust to fall on the surface which may cause its own issues.

So, my advice to builders is to listen to other builders and try different techniques and see what works for them. Some people may never get the hang of wetting a roller so it doesn't cause bubbles, some may never find the "feel" with a squeegee. Others may have find that they can't let their shop cool after epoxy work for some reason. Some epoxies probably foam up more than others, some may have a lower ignition temperature for blow torching, but maybe some need the intense heat of an open flame.

Much of the fun of making your own stuff is learning how to do it and overcoming challenges. And those same challenges are also the frustrations that may cause some people to take a chain saw to their boat. It is very hard to learn anything if everything goes right because you won't know what it is about what you did was really important and what is just a waste of time and effort. Its when your technique fails that you start to get a handle on how to do things.

Maybe it is time try Silver Tip instead of standard System III or go to Raka instead of MAS. It may not have the results you expected, but you will learn something. Of course if you have a customer awaiting a perfect boat, it can be risky to change anything. BTW System III recommends their "Clear Coat" for "wetting out of fiberglass cloth for bright finished boats". Sometimes it may help to read product descriptions.

http://www.systemthree.com/store/pc/Laminating-Coating-c2.htm
http://www.masepoxies.com/public/index.cfm?fuseaction=prodbrws.publicdetail&productid=69471
http://www.raka.com/epoxy.html
http://www.westsystem.com/ss/product-selection-chart/

This is a long and involved way to say "I don't know"

Messages In This Thread

Epoxy: Did I Get a Bad Batch of MAS?
Rob Macks/Laughing Loon CC&K -- 3/21/2012, 9:53 am
Re: Epoxy: Did I Get a Bad Batch of MAS?
Malcolm Schweizer -- 3/21/2012, 10:09 am
Re: Epoxy: Did I Get a Bad Batch of MAS?
Nick Schade - Guillemot Kayaks -- 3/21/2012, 2:27 pm
Re: Epoxy: Did I Get a Bad Batch of MAS?
Bill Hamm -- 3/21/2012, 3:20 pm
Re: Epoxy: Did I Get a Bad Batch of MAS?
Rob Macks/Laughing Loon CC&K -- 3/21/2012, 4:40 pm
Re: Epoxy: Did I Get a Bad Batch of MAS? *PIC*
Scott Fitzgerrell -- 3/21/2012, 8:08 pm
Nice work Scott! *NM*
Rob Macks/Laughing Loon CC&K -- 3/21/2012, 8:20 pm
Re: Epoxy: Did I Get a Bad Batch of MAS?
Kirk Fredericks -- 3/21/2012, 10:06 pm
Re: Epoxy: Did I Get a Bad Batch of MAS?
Bill Hamm -- 3/22/2012, 1:29 am
Re: Epoxy: Did I Get a Bad Batch of MAS?
Nick Schade - Guillemot Kayaks -- 3/22/2012, 11:09 am
Re: Epoxy: Did I Get a Bad Batch of MAS?
Rob Macks/Laughing Loon CC&K -- 3/22/2012, 1:52 pm
Re: Epoxy: Did I Get a Bad Batch of MAS?
Mike Bielski -- 3/23/2012, 9:01 am
Re: Epoxy: Did I Get a Bad Batch of MAS?
Rob Macks/Laughing Loon CC&K -- 3/23/2012, 2:00 pm
Re: Epoxy: Did I Get a Bad Batch of MAS?
Kirk Fredericks -- 3/23/2012, 3:25 pm
Re: Epoxy: Did I Get a Bad Batch of MAS?
Robert N Pruden -- 3/26/2012, 3:22 pm
Re: Epoxy: Did I Get a Bad Batch of MAS?
John Abercrombie -- 3/23/2012, 4:53 pm
Re: Epoxy: Did I Get a Bad Batch of MAS?
Nick Schade - Guillemot Kayaks -- 3/24/2012, 9:05 am
Re: Epoxy: Did I Get a Bad Batch of MAS?
Etienne Muller -- 3/24/2012, 9:31 am
Re: Epoxy: Did I Get a Bad Batch of MAS?
Rob Macks/Laughing Loon CC&K -- 3/24/2012, 10:30 am
CALLING CAPTAIN KIRK!
Rob Macks/Laughing Loon CC&K -- 3/24/2012, 10:47 am
Re: CALLING CAPTAIN KIRK!
Kirk Fredericks -- 3/24/2012, 3:52 pm
Re: Epoxy: Did I Get a Bad Batch of MAS?
John Abercrombie -- 3/24/2012, 12:24 pm
Re: Propane Torch
Nick Schade - Guillemot Kayaks -- 3/24/2012, 6:07 pm
Re: Propane Torch
Etienne Muller -- 3/24/2012, 8:21 pm
Re: Propane Torch
Rob Macks/Laughing Loon CC&K -- 3/25/2012, 11:42 am
Re: Propane Torch
george jung -- 3/25/2012, 12:00 pm
I have to share a story that is related to this...
Robert N Pruden -- 3/26/2012, 3:46 pm
Re: I have to share a story that is related to thi
Kirk Fredericks -- 3/26/2012, 8:06 pm
Re: I have to share a story that is related to thi
Robert N Pruden -- 3/26/2012, 8:57 pm
Re: I have to share a story that is related to thi
Bill Hamm -- 3/27/2012, 1:52 am
Re: I have to share a story that is related to thi
ancient kayaker -- 3/30/2012, 9:43 am
Re: I have to share a story that is related to thi
Bill Hamm -- 4/1/2012, 3:07 am
Re: I have to share a story that is related to thi
Etienne Muller -- 3/27/2012, 3:24 am
Re: I have to share a story that is related to thi
ancient kayaker -- 3/29/2012, 11:57 pm
Re: I have to share a story that is related to thi
Etienne Muller -- 3/30/2012, 3:20 am
Re: Epoxy: Did I Get a Bad Batch of MAS?
jack kantz -- 3/23/2012, 8:24 pm
Re: Epoxy: Did I Get a Bad Batch of MAS?
Jay Babina -- 3/23/2012, 8:35 am
Re: Epoxy: Did I Get a Bad Batch of MAS?
Dwight Lynn -- 3/21/2012, 3:54 pm
Re: Epoxy: Did I Get a Bad Batch of MAS?
Dwight Lynn -- 3/21/2012, 3:58 pm
Re: Epoxy: Did I Get a Bad Batch of MAS?
Robert N Pruden -- 3/21/2012, 7:09 pm
Re: Epoxy: Did I Get a Bad Batch of MAS?
Bill Hamm -- 3/22/2012, 1:42 am